Georgia Stasinopoulos Wins 2009 NYSFL Title
Hunter College's Lisa Mogilanski, Fiona Lowenstein Win J.V., Novice NYSFL Titles
posted by Jon Cruz on April 24th, 2009
ALBANY, N.Y. — The 2009 New York State Forensic League State Tournament concluded with a final round in varsity Lincoln-Douglas debate that featured Hunter College High School’s Alex Bores and Stuyvesant High School’s Georgia Stasinopoulos. In the round, Georgia defeated Alex to win the NYSFL title. Congratulations to both debaters!
Georgia is coached by Julie Sheinman and Caitlin Halpern; Alex is coached by Noel Selegzi and Chetan Hertzig.
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Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 24th, 2009 18:41
I’m not in Albany, so there won’t be live coverage this weekend. I’ll post what I have when I have it; the tournament uses codes and generally has handwritten schems in outrounds so it may be hard to get a full picture of the results right away.
My understanding is that in round 2, a number of students had repeat opponents and repeat judges. In at least one debate with a repeat judge, the kids were told to switch sides, but both negated in front of the judge, so they were told to debate anyway. Requests to remedy these errors were overturned.
I was surprised to learn, by looking through the league site, that there are copious rules about what types of questions ought to be asked in cross-examination, but no rules about repeat opponents or judges.
Oliver Roth’s presets were Bobby Esnard and Seth Teleky. Matt Thomas’s presets were Alli Gofman and Adam Silver.
Posted from: 67.205.7.31
April 24th, 2009 19:39
[...] NYSFL State (NY) — Awaiting Results Perspectives RR — Finals: Scarsdale’s Nikita Lalwani defeated Millburn’s Tess McNulty on a 3-2 decision. [...]
Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 24th, 2009 20:29
Students who have been asked have been told that students will receive an even number of aff and neg rounds. (The NYSFL tournament has four prelims.)
Posted from: 152.17.54.203
April 24th, 2009 20:42
sounds great
Posted from: 24.97.3.3
April 25th, 2009 00:17
I know I debated round 2 on the same side as round one, and was scheduled to be judged by the same judge as round one, until they found his wife to replace him. :)
P.S. I am livid at how late this tournament ran tonight. Postings at 9:40 for a double flighted round? Obnoxious.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
April 25th, 2009 12:29
This is why I’ve made a promise to myself to never step foot in NYSFL states ever again.
Posted from: 68.199.21.95
April 25th, 2009 12:58
They really screwed up this year, it wasn’t nearly as bad last year.
Posted from: 69.118.107.136
April 25th, 2009 18:24
Leave it to the people’s champion to put things into perspective.
Posted from: 165.123.228.202
April 25th, 2009 19:57
Last I heard, semis was:
bores (hunter) vs louis masi (regis)
isabel patowski (hunter) vs georgia (stuy)
That could be totally wrong though.
Posted from: 66.65.104.33
April 25th, 2009 20:19
finals is alex vs. georgia
fiona lowenstein from hunter is in novice finals vs. idk, and lisa mogilanski from hunter is in jv finals vs. idk
Posted from: 66.65.104.33
April 25th, 2009 20:23
stunter sweeps states – hunter wins novice and JV, georgia wins varsity!
Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 25th, 2009 21:31
At least three Bronx Science debaters were prevented from advancing to later rounds because of errors.
Daniel Fabrizio and Aidan McKeever were 4-0 in novice policy debate but were incorrectly marked as 3-1 and did not advance. They believed they were 3-0 going into round 4 but since the tournament prohibits disclosure, they were unable to clarify if they were 4-0 or 3-1 after the fourth round. They were confirmed 4-0 when they read their ballots.
Alex Tablan did clear in novice LD, but then was kept from advancing into octafinals after winning his double-octafinal round. One judge voted for Alex (both in his RFD and by writing his name out) but accidentally circled the wrong side. But since there is a prohibition on disclosure even in the elimination rounds, this problem was also not discovered until the bus ride home.
Congratulations to Daniel, Aidan, and Alex on their hard work. They were not recognized for these achievements at the time and I want to make sure they are recognized here.
Congratulations as well to Seth Teleky for making it to quarters and to Bobby Esnard for clearing. Congratulations to Tara Deonauth for making it to semis in Oratory. Congratulations as well to Noam Shapiro for making it to the final round of HI.
Finally:
Georgia Stasinopoulos and Alex Bores are two of the finest debaters in New York and I’m pleased to see they were able to make it to finals at this tournament. Congratulations!
Posted from: 67.205.7.31
April 25th, 2009 21:41
[...] State (AL) — Awaiting Results CHSSA State (CA) — Awaiting Results NYSFL State (NY) — Finals: Stuyvesant’s Georgia Stasinopoulos defeated Hunter College’s Alex [...]
Posted from: 165.123.228.202
April 25th, 2009 21:49
Congrats to Georgia, Bores, and all that broke!
I echo Jon in that I am thrilled that two of NY’s best debaters were able to trudge through to the final round.
Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 25th, 2009 22:13
There was a third tab error affecting Bronx Science debaters. I just wanted to also congratulate freshmen Chaitali Chanda and Rafael Henriquez, who were 3-1 and should have cleared in novice policy debate. They were marked as 2-2 and did not.
Posted from: 98.14.192.129
April 26th, 2009 01:11
Congratulations to Georgia. A truly worthy state champion
Posted from: 68.174.79.7
April 26th, 2009 01:57
STUNTER
Posted from: 72.225.205.12
April 26th, 2009 09:00
HUNTER (Stunter too)
Posted from: 68.104.7.43
April 26th, 2009 11:15
No offense, but isn’t there some sort of double-check system at the tournament? This sounds like either an anti-Bronx conspiracy or a VERY serious level of incompetence in tab…
Glad the oh so prestigious NV State Tournament didn’t have any tab errors reported ;-)
Posted from: 74.73.226.8
April 26th, 2009 11:38
there were some mighty fine fields surrounding the school. i got to affirm 4 times in prelims hehe
Posted from: 68.172.215.24
April 26th, 2009 11:52
Congrats to all, especially to Monticello’s Jay Cumming for novice finals.
And re: 19 – My bets are on the latter.
Posted from: 24.46.140.95
April 26th, 2009 13:28
NY States is always run poorly. One round reportedly had a father/son team judging in a semi round.
You appreciate all the officers’ efforts and work, but it’s not well executed.
And yes — LD prelims ended Fri. night at 11:00.
JV LD prelims ended Saturday AFTER the awards ceremony began.
Posted from: 69.118.246.151
April 26th, 2009 15:09
Where are all the results.
Also, how do u make States, a tournament which in every other activity is considered an “honor” to go to, be so poorly run, so illegit, and have so many errors in tab in debate
Posted from: 72.229.244.102
April 26th, 2009 15:17
Congratulations to Georgia for being an amazing captain and debater and ending her New York debate career on a very high note.
Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 26th, 2009 15:51
Ben — I do not have a copy of the results with names, and only have some results with codes. (The outrounds schematics were handwritten and the results packets we received apparently did not have a bracket with them, though I may be mistaken.) Once I have a full set of results, I will post them.
Again, congratulations to Georgia and Alex and everyone else!
Posted from: 64.12.116.76
April 26th, 2009 16:12
These are the Novice LD elims results:
Doubles
32) Hunter College ZP def. (1) Chaminade LL
(2) Byram Hills JH def. (31) Jericho BW
(30) Regis RF def. (30) Niskayuna BJ
(4) Brooklyn Technical NA def. (29) Jericho LH
(5) Monticello JC def. (28) Hunter College BW
(6) Kellenberg MC def. (27) Stuyvesant LS
(26) Syosset AG def. (7) Jericho AP
(8) Stuyvesant EH def. (25) Jericho MR
(24) Regis KL def. (9) Jericho AS
(10) Hunter College FL def. (23) Regis WD
(11) Regis RG def. (22) Niskayuna BM
(12) Jericho DB def. (21) Niskayuna EL
(13) Hunter College EL def. (20) Bronx Science AT
(19) Chaminade BQ def. (14) Regis CS
(18) Stuyvesant GW def. (15) HHE TS
(16) Monticello RW def. (17) Regis JP
Octas
(32) Hunter College ZP def. (16) Monticello RW
(8) Stuyvesant EH def. (24) Regis KL
(4) Brooklyn Technical NA def. (13) Hunter College EL
(5) Monticello JC def. (12) Jericho DB
(11) Regis RG def. (6) Kellenberg MC
(19) Chaminade BQ def. (30) Regis RF
(10) Hunter College FL def. (26) Syosset AG
(2) Byram Hills JH def. (18) Stuyvesant GW
Quarters
(32) Hunter College ZP def. (8) Stuyvesant EH
(5) Monticello JC def. (4) Brooklyn Technical NA
(19) Chaminade BQ def. (11) Regis RG
(10) Hunter College FL def. (2) Byram Hills JH
Semis
(5) Monticello JC def. (32) Hunter College ZP
(10) Hunter College FL def. (19) Chaminade BQ
Finals
(10) Hunter College FL def. (5) Monticello JC
Posted from: 64.12.116.76
April 26th, 2009 16:13
*It should be (6) Kellenberg PG (Peter Grabowski).
Posted from: 98.14.255.196
April 26th, 2009 16:57
Neil, thank you! If you have the results from the other events, I encourage you to post them. Your work is much appreciated! (And congratulations on making it to quarters!)
Posted from: 207.114.147.200
April 26th, 2009 17:23
congratulations georgia! you’re so talented. and good luck at the toc!
Posted from: 64.12.116.76
April 26th, 2009 17:29
You’re welcome. That’s all I have, as it was from the results packet.
Posted from: 67.150.48.195
April 27th, 2009 01:54
I want to warmly congratulate Alex and Georgia, both of whom I had the pleasure of judging this weekend. In fact, Georgia won my ballot in the only Varsity outround I was paneled on. I was also prevented from informing Alex that he picked up my prelim ballot. (Sorry about that, Alex — I intended to find you later and jokingly tell you I dropped you on a 30 tie, but after all the tab errors that were discovered… that wouldn’t have been funny.) I’m very happy talent did somehow struggle to the top this year!
And, overheard at the NYSFL, while waiting for our bus back to the hotel at 11:30 pm on Friday night:
Debater 1: “If the quality of this tournament was reflected in our method of transportation, we’d be riding donkeys up here.”
Debater 2: “No, the donkeys would be riding US.”
Posted from: 67.205.7.31
April 27th, 2009 06:26
[...] Tuteja defeated Mountain Brook’s Carter Bielen. CHSSA State (CA) — Awaiting Results NYSFL State (NY) — Finals: Stuyvesant’s Georgia Stasinopoulos defeated Hunter College’s Alex [...]
Posted from: 74.73.123.152
April 28th, 2009 21:53
I would like to take credit for that remark in Aracelis’s Comment
THat was the running joke in bronx Pofo
Posted from: 75.149.84.28
May 2nd, 2009 21:56
For the first time in the last 6 years I did not attend states.
Doesn’t really sound like I missed anything. It just sounds like more of the same. Tremendously sorry to the 5 bronx debaters who didn’t clear but should have. Also, sorry to what, undoubtedly amounts to a large list of other debaters who should have advanced and didn’t.
It’s just ridiculous that this argument happens EVERY YEAR. And this tournament is terrible EVERY YEAR. Is there really nothing that we can do about this? I know there is a core of very dedicated debaters and very dedicated coaches in NY. Why the hell can’t we band together and make a new tournament that doesn’t suck? It should be feasible, and this has GOT to stop. It’s the same damn thing EVERY YEAR. I’m sick of it, and I know that everyone else is too. Tab errors of this kind, and judging issues which have been epidemic at this tournament every year are just unacceptable. These kids work FAR too hard to have this crap happen to them. Can we please do something?
Lastly, and most importantly, congrats to all the debaters who were able to clear out of this quagmire of a tournament. It takes real perseverance and skill to succeed despite this level of adversity. It’s bad enough to have to compete against other good debaters- You shouldn’t have to compete against tab too. Kudos for your accomplishments.
-Shea
Posted from: 68.172.96.13
May 4th, 2009 19:31
Neil-
for the double octas round for novice (the 3rd one down), which one was the 30th seed and which one was 3rd seed?
Posted from: 24.90.223.119
May 4th, 2009 19:33
Sorry, Regis was 30th.
Posted from: 67.246.11.252
May 4th, 2009 20:09
thanks
Posted from: 72.80.226.60
May 5th, 2009 20:04
So, the NYSFL published a letter of apology regarding the 2009 tournament. (http://nysfl.org/letter.doc) Unfortunately, there are still a few problems, which need to be addressed.
The letter says nothing regarding people debating 4/5 prelims on the same side.
The letter also says nothing about the interruption of round 5 varsity LD prelims, which occurred due to Tab’s failure to assign JV outrounds to rooms that were not being used.
The letter also fails to extend a proper apology to ALEX Tablan, the Novice from Bronx Science who did not advance to “the octofonal round” after WINNING his Double-Octofinal round, he is instead named Seth.
Another shocking issue with this letter is that these mistakes were not totally accepted as the tabroom’s fault. The above mistake is denoted as “a judge’s recording error,” and while that was the case, tab typically notices if the entire ballot including the rfd, name and code of the child votes one way and the circled side does not correspond.
But finally, and probably most appalling, after the catastrophe of this year’s tournament, there were NO CHANGES made in the positions of Tournament Director, State Coordinator nor Site Coordinator. (http://nysfl.org/Regional%20Directors%20Meeting%202009.doc) But, hey, why change a working system right? After all, the mistakes are probably the fault of the competitors, because the tab staff may “rush a little too quickly to move the tournament along because [they are] aware of how many people are outside anxiously waiting for [them] to complete [their] work.”
Therefore, in order to minimize the pressure on the faithful tab staff, I will not be returning to the New York State Grand Championship Tournament.
Posted from: 165.123.122.89
May 5th, 2009 22:34
Bobby, to be quite honest, I’d hardly call the letter appalling. Let me preface this by saying that I agree that they should have correctly written “alex” instead of seth, and I also think that the letter should have addressed other problems that occurred. Let me also preface this by saying that I agree that the NYS tournament needs reform.
However, I don’t think it’s fair to bash the letter. I think the letter is an honest and open expression of the embarrassment and regret that the tabbing staff felt (feels). Do I think that the letter nullifies the fact that certain people didn’t advance when they should have? Of course not. But, I do think that this is a start.
The staff recognized that there were issues. The staff wrote an apology. The staff promised to do ALL that they could to prevent something like this from happening again. Take them up on their promise and continue to inform them of issues. Even if you think they have been unresponsive in the past (a thought that very well may be justified — I wouldn’t know — but I’ve definitely heard stuff along those lines), that shouldn’t deter you from voicing complaints and/or constructive criticism.
I, for one, am happy that this letter was written. I applaud the staff for taking a step (albeit, a not-so-large-one) towards a potential reconstruction of the NYS tournament.
People may call me biased because my old coach (someone to whom I owe a lot) is one of the members of the staff. But, I too have experienced the issues with the NYS tournament (for example, I, much like Alex, was inhibited from advancing in outrounds as a novice because the judge incorrectly filled out the ballot) , and I CERTAINLY recognize that there is need for reform.
I just think that sometimes people have to take a few steps from condemnation and take a few steps towards constructive criticism.
Bobby, please don’t take this as a bash. I respect you a lot and think there are pieces of substance to your post — it was just a good segue to something that I’ve been meaning to say for a while.
Posted from: 72.80.226.60
May 5th, 2009 23:10
Mike,
I can appreciate your point of view, and certainly I don’t think you were bashing me, especially since you were so polite and respectful :).
I understand that the letter was an expression of embarrassment and regret. But I don’t understand the attempts to shift responsibility for the failures of the tabroom onto the judges and competitors.
I think you make a really valid point when you say that constructive criticism is sometimes a better solution than condemnation. I certainly did not have the intention of sparking some revolutionary movement against the tournament. I was just expressing my personal sentiments regarding it, and for me, the tournament is too backward, too opaque and too faulty for me to continue attending.
The problems with the tournament have been going on for so long. An apology, especially this one, just isn’t enough.
But, this letter, aside from whether or not the tabroom is sincerely sorry or acknowledges its faults, is just not enough change for me to want to ever go back.
Posted from: 72.26.67.226
May 7th, 2009 21:26
Chris,
While in general I think you might be correct in saying that constructive criticism is a better option.in terms of imparting change. However, the problem is that in this particular situation, it has been shown not to work. That is to say that these problems have been occurring year after year, and people have registered formal complaints, and posted ways to improve the tournament year after the year, with nothing actually changing.
But, I guess, in the interest of good faith, I will include a list of problems that I have with the NYS grand tournament, and what I think could be done to possibly address them.
1) Tab issues: Issues such as debaters not clearing due to misread ballots, wrong judges etc are absolutely unacceptable, and Bobby is right to be angry that the tab room refused to accept those errors as their fault. I have a number of proposed changes that could help this.
First, I don’t know what kind of “fail-safe” the tournament has to ensure this kind of thing doesn’t happen, but it obviously is not sufficient. There needs to be people double checking every ballot. Perhaps two people, ESPECIALLY for out rounds. In cases of lack of clarity, judges should be called back in order to verify the decision is correct. Under NO circumstances should tab ever assume anything in the case of a ballot that is not clear.
Second, and this is huge with me. Allow for judge disclosure. Every single one of the errors that Jon mentions above would have been avoided by simply allowing judges to discuss their choices and RFD after the round. I honestly don’t understand what the “traditional” objection to this is. The only thing I have really heard is that it makes tournaments longer, but to be honest, I’m perfectly willing to give up an extra 20 minutes per double flighted round to ensure that this stuff gets done right. And frankly, not allowing disclosure in out rounds is sloppy and irresponsible.
2) Judging issues. This problem is multi-faceted. I see at least 4 problem areas here: inexperienced judges, judge overloading, tab judging issues, and improper judge use. Teams bringing judges without significant debate experience is unacceptable. Teams like Regis bringing extra judges which influence what style of debate is popularly accepted by the judging pool is probably meant well (Help out the tournament) but in the end really negatively effects how people debate, and ends up really benefiting their team to the detriment of others. Allowing debaters to debate on the same side to the same judge ties into the tab oversight issues that I discussed before. Horrible, and shouldn’t happen. Lastly, not having a judge ranking system is not acceptable. You should not have experienced judges in 1-2 novice rounds, and non-experienced parent judges in 3-0 varsity rounds.
These problems are pretty simply fixed. First of all, HIRE experienced judges, and make them available to schools for a fee. I know many schools end up hiring experienced judges on their own, due to wanting to give debaters a good tournament. I know this because schools have hired me twice before. Make it easy for them by having judges available to hire to fulfill their commitment. TONS of big tournaments do this, so I don’t understand why NYS does not. This helps with the first two problems I mention.
Furthermore, DON’T allow teams to bring more than their commitment. I know they mean well, but it seriously hurts the QUALITY of the judging pool, even if it helps the QUANTITY. I know which one I think is more important.
Tab issues I discussed before, but some sort of system needs to be in place to make sure that debaters do not hit the same judge. I don’t care how it’s done, but seriously there are plenty of tournaments bigger than NYS where it doesn’t happen, and I’ve been to locals much smaller than NYS where it didn’t happen, so it can’t be too hard.
Lastly, please rank judges. If teams are going to bring judges, have them rank them on a basis of A: Large amount of debate experience. B: Limited amount of debate experience or C: no debate experience, and distribute those judges based on the importance of the round. This will eliminate the problem of A judges on the circuit level watching 0-3 novice rounds, and parents whos idea of debate is CNNs hardball judging varsity out rounds.
3) The “legitness” of the tournament. 4 pre-lim rounds is NOT enough. Big 32 is not really a round, and debaters should not debate 4 Aff rounds.
I would suggest you move to at LEAST 5 real prelim rounds and probably 6, in order to allow the debaters who are doing well at the tournament to differentiate themselves from the debaters who do not. 4 rounds is not enough to do this. Big 32 is a horrible round that I have never met someone who liked it. It looks like an outround, it feels like an out round, but it isn’t an outround. Go to 5-6 prelims, and then cut to octos or double octos. I don’t even know what you’re trying to do with a big 32, but it’s not working.
Please please please don’t make debaters debate on the same side 4 rounds in a row. Why did they even write their negs for?
Two last suggestion that might be a good idea
1) Open tab room. Allow coaches to oversee what you’re doing in order to maintain transparency and to let them act as a failsafe for mistakes. If Jon had access to the tab room, ALEX Tablan would have cleared.
2) This is less important. But give teams judge strikes. Let them at least in part determine what kind of debate they will engage in.
This is by no means a comprehensive list of problems or solutions with the tournament. But I feel like if these changes were implemented it would go a long way towards making the tournament one that someone is proud to win, instead of just something to be endured.
Thanks,
Shea
P.S if someone knew who was the correct person to send this list to, I would greatly appreciate it, my email is sstrausmanATgmailDOTcom
Posted from: 68.174.79.7
May 10th, 2009 22:15
Tablan did clear.
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