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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Pre-standards&#8221; Arguments</title>
	<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: rob swanson</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-243066</link>
		<dc:creator>rob swanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-243066</guid>
		<description>sketchy a prioris exhibit the classic prisoner's dilemma: we'd all be better off without them (cuz they make debate suck/uninteresting), but each individual is better off running them (it's easy for negs to win off them, and any decent theory debater can easily check back 1ar theory with their 6 minutes in the nr, even if they are being unfair). what does this mean? unless we can somehow agree as a community that no one will ever run them again (which is probably impossible to do), we will continue having to deal with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sketchy a prioris exhibit the classic prisoner&#8217;s dilemma: we&#8217;d all be better off without them (cuz they make debate suck/uninteresting), but each individual is better off running them (it&#8217;s easy for negs to win off them, and any decent theory debater can easily check back 1ar theory with their 6 minutes in the nr, even if they are being unfair). what does this mean? unless we can somehow agree as a community that no one will ever run them again (which is probably impossible to do), we will continue having to deal with them.</p>
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		<title>By: mjocon</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-232061</link>
		<dc:creator>mjocon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-232061</guid>
		<description>since it's relevant, y'all should check out ldtheoryjournal.blogspot.com for more discussion on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>since it&#8217;s relevant, y&#8217;all should check out ldtheoryjournal.blogspot.com for more discussion on this issue.</p>
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		<title>By: epalm</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231600</link>
		<dc:creator>epalm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231600</guid>
		<description>Two things: first, Jake Nebel and Navot make an objection to the use of the phrase "a priori" to describe what we might independently characterize as "prestandards arguments" or whatever.  There is an element of truth to this argument, but it does not seem correct to think that no so-called "a priori" arguments are actually a priori, in the technical sense that they can be justified without empirical evidence.  For example, an argument which claims that the resolution is a tautology is more or less explicitly claiming that we do not need experiential evidence to ascertain the truth of the resolution.  Such an argument might claim that as soon as we know the meaning of the terms used in the resolution, we should be able to infer the truth of the resolution on minimal reflection and without appeal to any facts about the world.  Sure one has to have experience to come to know the language, but once one knows the language, knowledge of this particular proposition's truth can be derived without appeal to the way the world works.  The same is true with math - you learn math through experience, but once you know it, no particular mathematical proposition has to be justified by appeal to experience.

Similarly, if the prestandards issue says that the resolution is a logical truth, then one ought to be able to know that the resolution is true by logical deduction.  One view you might have about logical deduction is that it's all analytic, since you can get the rules of inference out of the Peano Postulates.  This is good reason to suppose that logical truths are all a priori, since there does not seem to be such a thing as empirical analytic truths.

Most arguments which claim that there are no moral facts work similarly.  There are exceptions: Gil Harman's argument for anti-realism claims that since moral facts are not known directly through observation, we can only know they exist if they play a role in explaining facts which we know through observation.  Since our explanation of the events in physical world does not require appeal to moral facts, we have no reason for believing in moral facts.  This arguments turns on an explicitly empiricist assumption: that if we cannot know a fact through observation or its role in explaining observations, then that fact does not obtain.  But most anti-realist arguments are not like this.  Most of them say that there is something incoherent about the idea of moral facts; in other words, they're mostly a priori.

Now I said there was something true about what Jake and Navot said.  That is that when a debater calls an argument "a priori", they usually mean that they win the round if they win this argument, that it is an atomically decisive issue or something.  Often times the reason why an argument can be said to have this import is because it is a priori in the real sense (and hence it renders the resolution obviously true or false, without much more to be said about other arguments), but the fact that an argument is a game over issue or whatever and the fact that an argument can be justified a priori are not reducible to one another.  

The second thing I wanted to say is that while I'm wholly convinced that we ought to exclude multiple no-risk issues, I am very skeptical about the proposal that the comparing worldviews paradigm has some better or more rigorous way of resolving that problem.  I'll write up my objections to that paradigm and post them later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things: first, Jake Nebel and Navot make an objection to the use of the phrase &#8220;a priori&#8221; to describe what we might independently characterize as &#8220;prestandards arguments&#8221; or whatever.  There is an element of truth to this argument, but it does not seem correct to think that no so-called &#8220;a priori&#8221; arguments are actually a priori, in the technical sense that they can be justified without empirical evidence.  For example, an argument which claims that the resolution is a tautology is more or less explicitly claiming that we do not need experiential evidence to ascertain the truth of the resolution.  Such an argument might claim that as soon as we know the meaning of the terms used in the resolution, we should be able to infer the truth of the resolution on minimal reflection and without appeal to any facts about the world.  Sure one has to have experience to come to know the language, but once one knows the language, knowledge of this particular proposition&#8217;s truth can be derived without appeal to the way the world works.  The same is true with math - you learn math through experience, but once you know it, no particular mathematical proposition has to be justified by appeal to experience.</p>
<p>Similarly, if the prestandards issue says that the resolution is a logical truth, then one ought to be able to know that the resolution is true by logical deduction.  One view you might have about logical deduction is that it&#8217;s all analytic, since you can get the rules of inference out of the Peano Postulates.  This is good reason to suppose that logical truths are all a priori, since there does not seem to be such a thing as empirical analytic truths.</p>
<p>Most arguments which claim that there are no moral facts work similarly.  There are exceptions: Gil Harman&#8217;s argument for anti-realism claims that since moral facts are not known directly through observation, we can only know they exist if they play a role in explaining facts which we know through observation.  Since our explanation of the events in physical world does not require appeal to moral facts, we have no reason for believing in moral facts.  This arguments turns on an explicitly empiricist assumption: that if we cannot know a fact through observation or its role in explaining observations, then that fact does not obtain.  But most anti-realist arguments are not like this.  Most of them say that there is something incoherent about the idea of moral facts; in other words, they&#8217;re mostly a priori.</p>
<p>Now I said there was something true about what Jake and Navot said.  That is that when a debater calls an argument &#8220;a priori&#8221;, they usually mean that they win the round if they win this argument, that it is an atomically decisive issue or something.  Often times the reason why an argument can be said to have this import is because it is a priori in the real sense (and hence it renders the resolution obviously true or false, without much more to be said about other arguments), but the fact that an argument is a game over issue or whatever and the fact that an argument can be justified a priori are not reducible to one another.  </p>
<p>The second thing I wanted to say is that while I&#8217;m wholly convinced that we ought to exclude multiple no-risk issues, I am very skeptical about the proposal that the comparing worldviews paradigm has some better or more rigorous way of resolving that problem.  I&#8217;ll write up my objections to that paradigm and post them later.</p>
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		<title>By: varun</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231590</link>
		<dc:creator>varun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231590</guid>
		<description>sean i understand your views (and probably agree that the resolution should be comparative) but im just saying that most judges will probably buy the argument that this resolution claims whether the affirmative action is just, not the most just. Consequently, many negatives will probably NOT be able to win under an alternative, unless of course they are judged by you :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sean i understand your views (and probably agree that the resolution should be comparative) but im just saying that most judges will probably buy the argument that this resolution claims whether the affirmative action is just, not the most just. Consequently, many negatives will probably NOT be able to win under an alternative, unless of course they are judged by you :P</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Mumper</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231491</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Mumper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231491</guid>
		<description>That would seem to depend on your frameworks establishment of what justice is. Specifically for me, while it is difficult sometimes, I would much rather evaluate the round in terms of which side is more desireable. Negatives that establish a policy option that is better and competitive with the affirmative will win my ballot. I really dont find the "alternatives dont win you the round because being more just doesnt disprove justice" argument compelling in the least. It seems to rely on an incredibly nebulous definition/concept of justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would seem to depend on your frameworks establishment of what justice is. Specifically for me, while it is difficult sometimes, I would much rather evaluate the round in terms of which side is more desireable. Negatives that establish a policy option that is better and competitive with the affirmative will win my ballot. I really dont find the &#8220;alternatives dont win you the round because being more just doesnt disprove justice&#8221; argument compelling in the least. It seems to rely on an incredibly nebulous definition/concept of justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashan P (Coach)</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231457</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashan P (Coach)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231457</guid>
		<description>I would say, with a much better warrant, that alternatives dont negate under the term justice. I feel like as long as the AC has a net benefit to justice, then it doesnt matter if there are options that are more just.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say, with a much better warrant, that alternatives dont negate under the term justice. I feel like as long as the AC has a net benefit to justice, then it doesnt matter if there are options that are more just.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Duby</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231429</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Duby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-231429</guid>
		<description>"providing an alternative to military force doesnt negate this resolution because the resolution is an absolute statement."

Why is that true?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;providing an alternative to military force doesnt negate this resolution because the resolution is an absolute statement.&#8221;</p>
<p>Why is that true?</p>
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		<title>By: Rebar Niemi</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230119</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebar Niemi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 05:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230119</guid>
		<description>EXCEPT FOR HYBRID COURTS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EXCEPT FOR HYBRID COURTS</p>
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		<title>By: wade</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230109</link>
		<dc:creator>wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 05:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230109</guid>
		<description>varun - i think rebar's post is specific to topic's like the TRC's one, which i think is phrased like this: successor governments ought to pursue transitional justice through truth and reconciliation commissions rather than through criminal prosecution. it limits CP ground because the neg is bound to criminal prosecution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>varun - i think rebar&#8217;s post is specific to topic&#8217;s like the TRC&#8217;s one, which i think is phrased like this: successor governments ought to pursue transitional justice through truth and reconciliation commissions rather than through criminal prosecution. it limits CP ground because the neg is bound to criminal prosecution.</p>
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		<title>By: varun</title>
		<link>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230103</link>
		<dc:creator>varun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 05:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://victorybriefsdaily.com/2008/04/09/topic-for-debate-pre-standards-arguments/#comment-230103</guid>
		<description>rebar how do use using the word ought kill CP ground? if anything, a comparative topic is usually the only instance when CP's are relevant at ALL. i.e. providing an alternative to military force doesnt negate this resolution because the resolution is an absolute statement. If the resolution read "the US ought to use military force..." providing a net benefit to the alternative would prove that we ought NOT use military force because we OUGHT to use the alternative</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rebar how do use using the word ought kill CP ground? if anything, a comparative topic is usually the only instance when CP&#8217;s are relevant at ALL. i.e. providing an alternative to military force doesnt negate this resolution because the resolution is an absolute statement. If the resolution read &#8220;the US ought to use military force&#8230;&#8221; providing a net benefit to the alternative would prove that we ought NOT use military force because we OUGHT to use the alternative</p>
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