Ask Cruz: Volume XV
NEW YORK, N.Y. — Here’s a late Thursday edition of everyone’s favorite debate trivia column. (No, it’s not “Stump the Chump” on Coachean Life, or — and I realize only the Hen Hud team and the Lexington Round Robin kids will get this — Bean Trivia, either.)
I want more questions to answer! Post here, e-mail me, etc. Yo know the drill.
Nick Bubb asks, “Who is the youngest diamond coach in the National Forensics League? (Alternatively: Which coach received their diamond the fastest?)”
I don’t know if he’s the youngest ever, but I am almost positive that Steve Schappaugh — now of University School in Florida — is the youngest currently. He certainly is one of the youngest ever, having received his first diamond at the tender age of twenty-three. Since you can’t start earning coaching points until you graduate from high school — not counting the 10% chunk of your competitor points that carries over, if you remember to request it — it’s hard to get your diamond at an age below twenty-three.
Anyway, this one’s difficult to answer with certainty for the same reason the question about the youngest Key Coach was hard to answer in Volume XIII: few debate organizations ask the ages of their members.
Don’t believe me? Here it is, straight from the horse’s mouth.
“Unfortunately, we don’t have ages on the coaches, so we would not know the first part…. Sorry I couldn’t be more help.” — Scott Wunn
And while I don’t mind disclosing Steve’s age, I ain’t askin’ around the ages of others.
To answer the second part of your question:
Since the first diamond requires 1,500 coaching points plus five years as a coach on record, there is no record for the “fastest” achievement of a first diamond. (For example, I have 3,438 coaching points as of this morning, but I wasn’t a coach on record from my days affiliated with Berkeley Carroll. So, despite having more than enough points for two diamonds, I won’t be receiving my first diamond until January of 2009. I’ll have turned twenty-five by then. So be there for Nationals next year as Joseph Gazzola and I receive our diamonds at the same time. How precious!)
By the way, I am not calling Scott a horse, in case there was any confusion.
Rebar Niemi asks, “Which states have had the most TOC champions? [Which] states have had any TOC champions?”
California, Florida, and New York are all tied with the most TOC champions; each can claim four champions. (This counts the 1988 close-out as producing two champions.)
Iowa places next after this three-way tie, with three champions from Valley High School during the second half of the 1990s. Alabama has had two TOC champions, both from Vestavia Hills High School. Minnesota has also produced two TOC champions: Hopkins’s Tom Pryor in 2001 and Edina’s John McNeil in 2004.
Nebraska, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Texas have produced one TOC champion each. (Yes, Texas has had only one TOC champion.)
Julian Switala asks, “Who has won a national tournament(z) (NCFL, NFL, or TOC) and their state tournament?”
This achievement is more common than some might realize, so this is by no means a definitive list. That having been said, even this sampling off the top of my head is, I think, pretty comprehensive.
Patrick Bannon of Regis was both the New York State Champion and the NFL National Champion in 1985. David Kennedy, also of Regis, was both the New York State Champion and the TOC Champion in 1989.
I am pretty sure that Shenendehowa’s Liz Rogers, who was the NCFL Champion in 1994, was also the New York State Champion, but I could be wrong about that. I know I’m not wrong about the rest.
Jessica Rosenberg of Benilde-St. Margaret’s was both the NCFL and Minnesota State Champion in 1996.
Greenhill’s Marc Wallenstein won Nationals in 1997 and TFA State in 1998.
Beth O’Connor of Hunter College won both the NCFL and the New York State Tournament in ‘99.
Eagan’s Maya Babu won the Minnesota State Tournament in 2000 and Nationals in 2001.
Mountain View’s Adam Chilton was an Arizona state champion in both 2002 and 2003, and won Nationals in 2003. (And yes, this is Mountain View in Arizona; Adam wasn’t teammates with Navot Tidhar.)
In 2005, all three tournaments you listed were won by reigning state champions. Greenhill’s David Wolfish was both the TOC Champion and the TFA State Champion in 2005. Tara Tedrow of Celebration won the NCFL in both 2004 and 2005; she won the Florida State Tournament and Nationals in 2005 as well.
W.T. Woodson’s Caitlin Halpern was a two-time Virginia state champion — and, in fact, she appeared in the varsity final round there three times in total! — and won the NCFL in 2006.
And, to do an events crossover, as you indicated would be acceptable following your question, Alex Stephenson of Eagan was both the Minnesota State Champion in Lincoln-Douglas debate in 2006 and the NFL National Champion in U.S. Extemporaneous Speaking in 2007.
I’m not sure about the Alabama and Iowa state championships, but I’ll bet Vestavia Hills and Valley had some folks win both state titles and national titles as well.
This really was off the top of my head. Wow, I’m pathetic.
Michael O’Connell asks, “Who was the youngest head coach of a TOC-winning program? Corbin Cass coached Lynbrook last year but Dave McGinnis was the head coach there.”
Oscar Shine was the sole coach at Mission San Jose in 2002 when Andrew Garvin won the TOC. Oscar was a first-year-out. These days, he’s working at Google. (I want to be clever and say I found that on Google, but I didn’t.)
Closed behind was Eric Palmer, who coached Stephen Hess to the TOC championship the year before in 2006. He was both a second-year-out at the time and the head coach of the Mountain View-Los Altos program.
Ely Grinfeld, “How much time do you spend on this junk?”
Who are you, Jim Menick?
—
Jon Cruz is going to be doing some eBay work this week. But he’s not selling the white-beard Jorg Sacul found for him by Bietz. May the Force be with you!
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29 Responses to “Ask Cruz: Volume XV”
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Posted from: 209.181.228.22
March 7th, 2008 08:55
I’m putting on that at this time next year, Minnesota will be tied with Iowa tied for 4th with 3 TOC Champions (Dunno who will win, but it doesn’t matter)
Posted from: 12.160.50.20
March 7th, 2008 10:37
I don’t mean to challenge your word on this Mr. Cruz, but how certain are you on Michael O’Connell’s question? I remember when I was still at MSJ Oscar Shine coached Garvin & Iyer and Garvin one.
?
-FT
Posted from: 12.160.50.20
March 7th, 2008 10:38
(and he was a 1st or 2nd year in college)
-FT
Posted from: 70.143.78.138
March 7th, 2008 10:56
Oscar was indeed a first year out, and at that point was our only coach.
Also worth mentioning: Victor Jih coached Ann Miura to the championship when he was only 21 years old. I don’t know if he was the head coach of Palo Alto back then, but I seem to remember that he played a significant role.
Posted from: 68.175.61.157
March 7th, 2008 11:55
Victor wasn’t the head coach at Palo Alto, but you’re right, Oscar was. (Of course you’re right — you were coached by him!)
I want to say that my confusion here was in terms of what was meant by “head coach” — I was under the impression that the logistics on the MSJ team were run by the students, which may be why I temporarily forgot about Oscar. I also always seem to think Oscar is my age, but he’s a year younger. But that’s making excuses. Article amended.
I’m still honored that Andrew reads this. :o)
Posted from: 69.120.226.236
March 7th, 2008 13:50
How many TOC final rounds have been decided by one ballot (winner has one more than loser)?
Posted from: 207.207.127.254
March 7th, 2008 18:06
has a person who received an at-large bid to the toc ever won? if not, who finished the highest?
Posted from: 74.36.137.22
March 7th, 2008 21:11
why?
Posted from: 74.72.3.221
March 8th, 2008 12:11
I am watching a thrilling episode of MADE which featurs a cheerleader in her quest to become a DEBATER.
Posted from: 71.90.27.171
March 9th, 2008 11:39
I must admit, I had my own motives behind asking the question. I just got my first diamond last week and I’m only 24.
Posted from: 68.175.61.157
March 9th, 2008 12:32
Congratulations, Nick!!
Posted from: 24.131.207.231
March 9th, 2008 17:47
Chris Regan won New York and NCFLs in 1993.
Posted from: 75.25.130.115
March 9th, 2008 18:45
So, Michael Erickson was the most successful junior, while Justin Osofsky was the most successful freshman. Catherine or the Valley duo will probably beat the record this year, but so far, who was the most successful sophomore at the TOC?
Posted from: 199.120.105.71
March 9th, 2008 18:59
Steven Davis, Des Moines Roosevelt won NFL and both Iowa State tournaments in 1995/6? I am not sure of the year, but I am sure of the results. He was coached by Dave Houston who went on to fame in Texas and was one of the hosts of Nationals in Dallas. Ben Silberman closed out the IHSSA state with Davis that year and finished 6th at NFL nationals.
Posted from: 69.119.93.209
March 9th, 2008 20:01
Cruz why am I so luvable?
Posted from: 69.148.77.199
March 10th, 2008 06:50
Steve Davis won NFL Nationals in ‘99. I assume that is the same year that he won Iowa’s state tournament.
Posted from: 207.28.99.97
March 10th, 2008 12:53
Actually, if memory serves, he won it two years in a row.
Posted from: 151.188.213.140
March 12th, 2008 05:33
Has an LDer ever gone to a different speech/debate event and produced excellent circuit results? (or vice versa)
Posted from: 68.98.109.16
March 12th, 2008 09:35
Anonymous - I think there was a Lynbrook debater (who I know I judged at VBT a couple years ago) who had done policy debate and then went into LD and did fairly well ;)
Posted from: 71.42.73.162
March 12th, 2008 09:51
yeah, mcgough and diehl were both policy crossovers. i think david wolfish was a policy debater for at least his freshman year at greenhill, and i’m sure there’s a slew of other kids who’ve done well that crossed over - those are just the ones that stick out in my mind. while my successes pale in comparison to everyone i just mentioned, i competed in policy, ld, speech, and interp events throughout high school haha.
Posted from: 128.135.190.118
March 12th, 2008 10:18
jr did oratory and won it at harvard
Posted from: 68.11.25.35
March 13th, 2008 17:23
Jon, are the judge paradigms still up on the new site? I haven’t found them. Thanks.
Posted from: 98.199.112.103
March 13th, 2008 18:17
haha the jim menick link PDF is great
Posted from: 71.170.164.200
March 13th, 2008 19:16
The best example of a cross over debater was Brandon Fletcher from Newman Smith HS. Brandon was one of the best if not THE best policy debater in the country his senior year, but his partner decided not to go to districts thus no nationals. Brandon did LD and was in the LD FINALS at NFL nationals in 1993. He did the famous line in finals that - because people stopped listening - cost him the round. “My name is Brandon Fletcher, my coach is Aaron Timmons, and I love CX debate….” What he went on to say was that his experience at nationals in LD proved to him that LD was just as intellectually stimulating and exciting as his policy rounds - but the LD community was all up in arms because a policy debater was in LD finals that they didn’t listen to the last part.
Posted from: 72.80.242.157
March 13th, 2008 20:42
Doug Jeffers originally debated policy for a minute as a freshman. Then eventually won the NFL.
Posted from: 24.196.43.40
March 13th, 2008 23:50
Apple Valley debaters are consistently good at both Oratory and Debate or Oratory and Extemp. Back when the tournament used to allow double entries to Nationals, I remember Kelsey Olson going deep in both extemp and LD. I am sure there are others.
Posted from: 24.196.43.40
March 13th, 2008 23:51
that was supposed to be extemp and debate for the second combination. but nonetheless, MN folks are good at Debate and public speaking activities. There are a couple other schools that I can vaguely remember this being true for.
Posted from: 71.236.67.195
March 14th, 2008 01:18
how can anyone forget jr thorsen, oratory prodigy?
Posted from: 68.48.175.11
March 14th, 2008 05:09
Doug was also a Champion Lip Sync competitor on the famed Houston middle school circuit circa 1999. Does that count?