Ask Cruz: Volume X
NEW YORK, N.Y. — Woah! Sorry for the long delay in returning to my regular feature, Ask Cruz. I’ve made this one a little longer than usual to make up for lost time. As always, you can post further queries regarding debate trivia right here on VBD, and I’ll select a few to answer in my next installment. Alternatively, you can e-mail me directly.
Before I start, I feel I should address a point raised not that long ago. There was some discussion in the comments section of Ask Cruz: Volume VIII — the most recent “regular” installment of this column, as Volume IX was a birthday edition for Mike Bietz — that Jason Baldwin may have had the longest streak of earning bids at bid tournaments, with a suggestion that he went “fifteen for fifteen” over the course of his career, as “he bid at every tournament he went to.” Jason did not earn a bid at every TOC-qualifying tournament he attended; he dropped in the double-octafinals at both St. Mark’s his junior year and Wake Forest his senior year.
Rebar Niemi also asked why I am supporting Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama, and that’s a question I’d be happy to answer in detail, though this probably isn’t the right forum, as he suggests. Send me a Facebook message!
Anyway. On to the questions.
Andrew Garvin asks, “How many all-girl TOC finals have there been?”
There have been two final rounds in which both of the debaters were female. In 1994, Palo Alto’s Ann Miura defeated Vestavia Hills’s Claire Carman to take the TOC. In 2002, Millard West’s Jenn Larson defeated Apple Valley’s Kelsey Olson to win the championship.
Given what else Andrew said, I feel especially bad that I’ve been remiss in my duties regarding twice-weekly postings of Ask Cruz. “Jon, I hate you,” he noted. “These trivia questions have gotten me back into the mode of looking at [VBD] everyday.”
I hope my regular posts will bring you back once again. I miss you!
Matt Dunay asks, “What Lincoln-Douglas debate coach has coached the most future coaches?”
I don’t know anyone that rivals Pam Cady Wycoff in terms of producing debaters who have gone on to become coaches. Unquestionably one of the most successful coaches in the history of this event, Pam has also had an outstanding track record of producing coaches who produce champions in their own right.
In addition to the alumni who coach at Apple Valley itself — Cherian Koshy, Tim Hogan, David Singh, Andrea Singh, Andy Poker, David Brown, Jennie Budenski, Doug Anderson — many Apple Valley alumni coach or have coached debate programs throughout the country. Lindsey Andersen (Des Moines North), Jessica Bailey (Edina), Leah Halvorson (Archer and Brentwood), Seth Halvorson (Bronx Science and Lexington), Beena Koshy (Sacred Heart), Dave McGinnis (Valley), Kelsey Olson (Greenhill), Megan Reikowski (Eagan), and Katie Whillock (Lakeville) are among the many past and present coaches that were once Pam’s students.
Jeffrey Miller asks, “Has anyone won the ‘triple crown’ in LD (that is CFL, NFL, and TOC)?”
No.
Regis’s David Kennedy had a good shot at claiming all three tournaments. He won the TOC at the start of May and took the NCFL at the end of May. The way the story has been told to me, some kind of tabulation error kept David from advancing, and this error was not discovered until late in the tournament. So, while denied the chance to win all three tournaments, he remains the only debater ever to win both the NCFL and the TOC.
There are three candidates I would nominate as having come closest in recent years.
Celebration’s Tara Tedrow is the only debater to have ever won the NCFL twice. She is also the only person to have ever won both Nationals and the NCFL. She was an octafinalist at the TOC — dropping to eventual champion David Wolfish of Greenhill — the same year she won both of these titles.
Dulles’s Douglas Jeffers was National Champion and a semifinalist at the TOC. He was also runner-up at the NCFL. Admittedly, though, the latter accomplishment was as a junior, while the former two were as a senior.
Milton’s Ben Rothstein was an octafinalist at the TOC, third at Nationals, and first at the NCFL.Interesting side note: I dropped in doubles that year to Chaminade’s Robert Meekins, who went on to face Ben in octas. I would no doubt would have been very publicly face-crushed, so perhaps my early exit was a blessing in disguise, even if senior-year me would never have accepted that.
As an editorial aside, while I’ve also used the term “triple crown” in this context — when Glenbrook North won all three tournaments a few years back — and while Bronx Science competes at the NCFL, I often question the notion that the NCFL forms a “triple crown” with (NFL) Nationals and the TOC. The National Forensic League sponsors a national championship for all the local circuits in the country; the University of Kentucky sponsors a championship for the “national circuit.” The NCFL — unquestionably a “national tournament” — does not have a qualifying system in place for vast swaths of the country. So, I’ve never seen it as a championship of the local circuits the way that Nationals is.
Just food for thought. Regardless if the tournaments are completely analogous, winning all three would certainly demonstrate an ability to adapt to a tremendous range of styles.
Sean Nadel asks, “Is there a cooler last name than Wrigley-Field?”
Hunter College High School’s Elizabeth Wrigley-Field unquestionably has the coolest name in the history of Lincoln-Douglas debate. I’d nominate Ting Ting Tam as having the best name of any debater with whom I have worked.
Isaac Bloch asks, “What is the largest number of entries a school has cleared in a single year at the TOC?”
I posed this question once to J.W. I plan to investigate further when I have direct access to some of the records at Kentucky down the line, but he was fairly certain that no school has ever cleared more than three Lincoln-Douglas debaters. This is an exceedingly rare feat, and has happened only twice so far in the twenty-first century. In 2003, Edina cleared three debaters (Nick Green, John McNeil, and Jed Glickstein). In 2007, Hockaday cleared three debaters (Lindsay Dolan, Joan Gass, and Taarini Vohra).
In policy debate, the all-time record held by Bronx Science, which cleared five teams in 1984. (For the record, I was a notch under a year old.)
Nixxi Chen asks, “What was the first round YOU judged, Cruz?”
My first tournament judging as a college freshman would have been a local LIFA tournament at Kellenberg Memorial High School. One of the rounds at that tournament featured Peter Petraro, who was then a senior at Chaminade. I judged quite a few LIFA tournaments that year; during the early part of the year, I recall judging Matt Scarola, who was then a sophomore at Syosset, and Merve Emre, who was then a junior at Schreiber. (I may have judged Merve at Princeton, though, and not a LIFA tournament.)
Om Alladi asks, “This may be a hard question to answer, but what is the most memorable round you have ever seen?”
I’ve judged many rounds since I graduated from high school, and watched many rounds that I haven’t judged. I think the distinction of “most memorable round I have ever seen” would be the final round of the St. Mark’s Heart of Texas Invitational in 2004. The round pitted Schreiber’s Adwait Parker against Highland Park’s Katie Poulos. Katie ran a kritik of unnecessarily complex rhetoric with some creative impacts. The round was funny, Katie’s arguments were thought-provoking, and Adwait’s responses were very well-executed. During prep time, I remember turning to Jacob Levi and telling him that I knew I would always remember that round, and that it would be a round that people were still talking about a decade later.
Runner-up? This year’s final round at Greenhill — featuring Trinity Prep’s Jake Nebel and Edina’s David McNeil — may actually have been the best round I’ve ever seen. Jake’s affirmative case was phenomenal, and beyond persuasive: it was actually emotionally moving. I had an allergy attack before the round, and started sniffling after the first few minutes of the AC — in which the audience was in captivated silence — and rumor has it that Chris Castillo thought I was crying. The quality of David’s answers, and Jake’s answers to his answers, was just incredible. Great round.
Julian Switala asks, “Who gave you Blade Runner?”
My parents bought me the five-disc collector’s edition of Blade Runner: The Final Cut, which contains five versions of the film, a ludicrous number of deleted scenes and archival footage, and a whole set of compelling documentaries. Blade Runner is my favorite film beyond the Star Wars series.
Have a better one.
Julian Switala also asks, “Who has questioned you the most about Debate Trivia?”
Justin Bromberg of Michael Krop High School unquestionably holds this title.
–
Jon Cruz is a Nexus 6 replicant.
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54 Responses to “Ask Cruz: Volume X”
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Posted from: 69.229.243.40
January 23rd, 2008 00:09
Grapevine also cleared three. Lindsay Jandal, Chad Bush and Paul Gravely… i think i’m right in all three of those names.
Posted from: 69.229.243.40
January 23rd, 2008 00:10
Though, that was not in this century…
Posted from: 66.41.183.0
January 23rd, 2008 07:34
you are correct on those names.
Posted from: 160.39.89.15
January 23rd, 2008 08:46
Beena Koshy is also an Apple Valley alumnus who now coaches. :)
Posted from: 64.91.217.43
January 23rd, 2008 08:57
for those interested, there are 50 people qualled this year (including the auto-quals), and there are LOT of you out there with one bid.
to start getting an idea of the at-large list, go to ldscoreboard.blogspot.com
then click the 2007 tab in the right, then use your browser’s ‘find’ tool to search for names of those who you think you’re in competition with (that way, you can see where they bid) [also, you can do the same for 2008]
Posted from: 67.155.35.66
January 23rd, 2008 09:06
I think the record will probably be broken this year but what is the record for most underclassmen to break at TOC? I remember in 2003 I was part of a pretty weak senior class that had 6 Juniors break (Jed Glickstein, Bryce Adams, Steph Bell, Mie, John Mcneil, Eric Palmer) break into Octos. I’m sure this year will see at least 8 juniors in the octos.
Posted from: 204.72.116.44
January 23rd, 2008 09:18
Sam’s right - 2003 was an intense year for juniors - but there were at least eight juniors. Tim and Chris both hit each other in octas of that year and were autoqualled in 2004.
Posted from: 68.175.60.223
January 23rd, 2008 09:29
Chetan, Cherian will confirm she was on my draft list. I don’t know how I left her off. Sorry, Beena!
Posted from: 169.204.230.202
January 23rd, 2008 09:38
which year objectively has had the highest level of competition at the TOC? has a junior ever won the TOC?
Posted from: 169.204.230.202
January 23rd, 2008 09:39
oh wait, i guess you couldn’t measure objectively the level of competition. which year has had the highest subjective level of competition?
Posted from: 66.41.183.0
January 23rd, 2008 12:50
Beena is forgettable. :)
Posted from: 168.69.134.240
January 23rd, 2008 13:46
Jon:
What exactly do you define as coaching? Were all these Wycoff exes official full or part time hires by a school or district? do they all hold teaching certifications and college degrees? To be paid money to help a team is very different from going to college, majoring in education or a subject area and gaining state teacher certification, and then getting hired by a school district and teaching classes full time. I am not familiar with many of the names you mentioned, but I am wondering if your definition of coaching is different from mine. Perhaps Ms. Wycoff is the accurate choice for this question, but when you inspire others to make what you do their life’s work, that is truly an honor.
Posted from: 71.160.56.34
January 23rd, 2008 14:19
Although it was directed to Jon, I can say that on his list, many of the people have gone on to dedicate their lives to debate. I find it a bit dubious, however, to say that someone who is a full-time teacher is more dedicated as a coach or to the process of education than someone who doesn’t hold that certificate or full-time job.
Jessica Bailey (Edina): Edina hasn’t, at least in the 15 years, had a teacher that was the debate coach. That said, the director of forensics, which Jess is, is a fulltime job with very little compensation. I know that the person in that position works at least 30-40 hours a week on debate/speech administration.
Leah Halvorson (Archer and Brentwood): Worked at Archer and Brentwood and was working at Archer an intern.
Seth Halvorson (Bronx Science and Lexington): Is a teacher
Beena Koshy (Sacred Heart): Is a teacher.
Cherian Koshy (Apple Valley): Not a teacher but worked at Apple Valley high school and now works for the NFL.
Dave McGinnis (Valley): Is a teacher.
I don’t know what the four coaches who are in undergrad or recently graduated from undergrad are currently pursuing, but I can say that Ms. Wycoff’s dedication to encouraging her former students to stay involved with debate are immense. Jon left out many Apple Valley alumni who also coached:
Drew Hammond: coached multiple national champions in IE and is studying to be a teacher
Anne Weigand: an assistant at Edina while I was there
Tim Hogan: a four-year assistant at Apple Valley
Dave Singh: assistant coached for four years and also was a head coach at Forest Lake High School
And lets not forget Joe Reilly, who won this year’s Tabroom Turkey award at Blake. :)
Posted from: 64.91.217.43
January 23rd, 2008 14:58
this year is going to be very intense underclassmen competition, i predict (in outrounds of TOC): paul tyger, jake nebel, ben holguin, shivani vohra, david mcneil, chris theis, ben schifberg, daniel moerner, catherine tarsney, ryan bennett all in outrounds, i’ll call it now. it’s gonna be a struggle for the seniors.
Posted from: 64.91.217.43
January 23rd, 2008 14:58
to have**
Posted from: 138.16.32.79
January 23rd, 2008 15:41
scarsdale has some pretty good juniors too, i think.
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
January 23rd, 2008 16:20
ken, matt, moretit, nikita FTW
Posted from: 75.73.219.151
January 23rd, 2008 16:33
Sohail and Quinn speak da truf.
Fun question: What has been the greatest bid-tournaments-won-by-juniors-count to bid-tournaments-won-by-seniors-count in a given year? For example, I’d imagine that ratio is somewhere around 3:1 this year…YEA, CLASS OF 08, WE FAIL!
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
January 23rd, 2008 16:38
we should revert to gym class politics and just beat them up…
Posted from: 75.73.219.151
January 23rd, 2008 16:41
/take lunch money etc.
Posted from: 66.75.62.231
January 23rd, 2008 17:17
This is one i really am curious about
Has there ever been a freshman that has qualled to the TOC? If so, who and how did they do?
Posted from: 66.41.183.0
January 23rd, 2008 17:41
To clarify, when Jon asked me the question about Mrs. Wycoff’s students who became coaches, I only listed students that she coached and who became LD coaches in a role as an assistant or head coach and that were hired by a school. There are countless students that were not on the list that “helped out” teams or students. As well, the people on the list include only individuals who coached for multiple years.
If we expand the question to include Apple Valley alums, Mrs. Wycoff’s student teachers, and other events, the list is *much, much* longer.
I’m not sure how one would define a coach (that’s probably the subject of lengthy conversation) but if we consider Mr. Trent’s rebuke, the list is admittedly shorter:
Scott Voss: Mrs. Wycoff’s student at Loyola is now a teacher and coach at Apple Valley
Jennie Budenski: Teacher at Apple Valley, now at Hopkins
Seth Halvorson: Teacher at the Dragon Academy (seriously, that’s what it’s called) in Toronto, Canada
David McGinnis: Teacher at WDM Valley, IA
Beena Koshy, Teacher at Sacred Heart, MA
Regardless, even if we, the non-teachers, don’t constitute the “highest” form of coach, it’s reasonably impressive that so many former students opt to stay involved in the activity during college and beyond.
However, (and I’ll speak for Mrs. Wycoff here) while she is truly honored by the students who chose to follow in her footsteps and become teachers. I am certain that she is also honored that the list includes a doctor, a lawyer, a Ph.D in Philosophy, as well as another one about to be a Ph.D in Political Science. And then there are the schleps like me ;)
While she might be disappointed that some of us did not become teachers, it may not be the right profession for everyone and that shouldn’t be a reflection of her inability to inspire. What may be more telling is that she instills a spirit of community in her students that encourages a truly absurd number of alumni to give back to her program as well as the activity. She also inspires her students to take their own path and find their own success whether it is in the field of education or another field.
Posted from: 75.67.192.249
January 23rd, 2008 17:49
Nick Green was the freshman - touche Mike Bietz!
Posted from: 66.233.57.238
January 23rd, 2008 18:21
maeshal, becca, donatti (closeouts count too), and at least a few other seniors have all won bid tournaments this yr. it’s not a total domination, but pretty close, although the class of 08 isn’t going down w/o a fight. see you in finals lil uns.
Posted from: 74.36.137.22
January 23rd, 2008 18:33
I agree with Quinn, the number of auto-quals to the ‘09 TOC will likely be ridiculous. :)
Posted from: 69.253.230.13
January 23rd, 2008 18:41
to post 21, paras kumar:
catherine tarsney qualified last year as a freshman. as for how, she started debate when she was really young.
Posted from: 68.175.60.223
January 23rd, 2008 19:12
Cecil — Bietz and Cherian have already answered the substance of your post in terms of identifying which of the people listed were/are teachers.
I’d add that I’m a certified teacher, but that many of the best and most dedicated coaches in this activity — Mike Bietz, Cherian Koshy, Jim Menick come immediately to mind — are not.
Posted from: 67.40.155.155
January 23rd, 2008 19:18
Justin Osofsky from Isidore Newman in New Orleans went to the TOC as a freshman and cleared.
michelinmassey
Posted from: 12.215.129.141
January 23rd, 2008 20:15
Mr. Trent–
There are probably coaches whose pure motivation to coach while in college is to get “paid money,” but I know plenty of other jobs that pay a hell of a lot better and require a whole lot less work than being an assistant coach. I don’t mean to rehash the old debate about the value of college coaches or to imply that you mean to demean us, but I think it is important to understand the importance of those who might not be full time teachers/professionals. Some of us coach because we care about education, access, and giving back to the activity that has given a lot to us. I don’t think we need to belittle the work done by some to appreciate the work done by others.
On an entirely unrelated note, I would love to see a discussion on how we can continue to expand the urban debate programs around the country which have had tremendous success in policy. I know many of the Uchicago folks (Tom Blaser and Liz Scoggin come to mind) are involved in these kind of programs; what can we do to expand such efforts around the country? Sorry for the odd placement of this, but given that this is about the only website that I know of that most LD people check out, I figured I’d give it a shot.
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
January 23rd, 2008 20:28
Osofsky also had 9 bids
Posted from: 68.48.175.11
January 23rd, 2008 20:41
Salman, you sure you aren’t referring to Justin’s brother, Michael (who also has an affinity for good cooking). I don’t remember Justin going to that many tournaments?
Posted from: 69.118.235.253
January 23rd, 2008 20:50
Sean Wynn will win TOC.
Posted from: 75.71.25.178
January 23rd, 2008 21:20
what is the most ridiculous attire you have seen in a debate round?
Posted from: 165.123.229.179
January 23rd, 2008 21:47
I know I probably sound like a broken record, but, like Ernie, I’d be extremely interested in seeing a thread dedicated to talking about Urban debate programs.
As I’ve often mentioned, participating in an urban debate program in Philadelphia has completely change my life and it’s an experience I’d love to share with others. I think this is a discussion that should happen (and soon) and I’d really love to see a thread dedicated to it rather than just a few posts on a thread dedicated to something else.
Posted from: 68.209.198.15
January 23rd, 2008 21:56
for best attire i nominate rebar at berkeley last year
Posted from: 68.175.60.223
January 23rd, 2008 22:03
“What is the most ridiculous attire you have seen in a debate round?”
I believe Ryan Hamilton sported quite a few string ties and ascots in his day.
Posted from: 75.25.130.115
January 23rd, 2008 22:16
“for those interested, there are 50 people qualled this year (including the auto-quals), and there are LOT of you out there with one bid.
to start getting an idea of the at-large list, go to ldscoreboard.blogspot.com”
I think Catherine Tarsney deserves some recognition for having both 5 and 6 bids - a feat I am sure will not be beaten for a long time.
And, by the way, Meadows AK is Adrienne Keamy, but I couldn’t post that in the Scoreboard comments because the visual verification doesn’t work.
Posted from: 66.233.57.238
January 23rd, 2008 22:25
we will be busting the maroon 3-piece at berkzerkerly again.
Posted from: 66.233.57.238
January 23rd, 2008 22:25
oh, and wade’s seer-sucker suit @ ghill was mad classy.
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
January 24th, 2008 08:44
Anjan, I’m pretty sure it was Justin, but I could be wrong. I just remember Anthony telling me one of them had 9 bids
Posted from: 75.73.219.151
January 24th, 2008 16:51
Speaking of forums for random debate topics, the LDB is facing the same threat as the old ldboards.com–PR0N SPAM!!! Anyways, that being said, it’s too bad we can’t get some sort of validation system on that board that makes sure that the people registering are actually debaters and not pr0n spambots (not that the latter don’t deserve their own niche of internet hell).
Posted from: 66.75.62.231
January 24th, 2008 17:08
Thanks a lot,
now do you know how justin did it? 9 bids is insane, especially for a freshman. Did he start debating at a really young age as well?
Posted from: 68.48.175.11
January 24th, 2008 20:28
Okay, before this gets out of hand, I very much can assure you Justin (who was a year older than me, and also a classmate of mine at HLS) did not have 9 bids as a a freshman.
It is certainly possible he did that his senior year, as he was spectacular — though I do really think Anthony was talking about Michael (Justin’s little brother) getting 9 bids, as Michael debated in Anthony’s time.
Posted from: 75.71.25.178
January 24th, 2008 20:42
Has someone ever been eliminated from a TOC out round, or bid tournament out round by being too late?
Posted from: 69.181.125.125
January 24th, 2008 20:50
a debater from ashland slept through his doubles round at the glenbrooks in 2004.
Posted from: 216.62.159.121
January 24th, 2008 23:31
Jon Cruz,
Here is a question
When will VBI Cribz come back?!
Posted from: 128.101.49.8
January 24th, 2008 23:40
i dont think starting at a young age (7th grade) led to catherine bidding as a freshman. many debaters dont qual, or even bid for that matter, in their third or fourth year as a senior. meaning that it was probably due to other factors, such as her intellect and all the things that ernie rose pointed out on the CPS thread.
didnt steph bell qual as a freshman?
Posted from: 65.218.157.99
January 25th, 2008 01:46
steph bell did not qual as a freshman, she got 1 bid from the omaha westside warrior invitational.
believe, me as the westside warrior authority, i know who got where in the past, oh, say, thirty years-ish.
Posted from: 66.233.57.238
January 25th, 2008 07:15
yo jswitty, your arg merely proves the OG statement. she might be fricking smart, but gurrl has also debated for a long time and knows whats up.
craig gilbert was a frosh, rite?
Posted from: 24.215.162.165
January 25th, 2008 10:56
gurdane bhutani qualled as a first-year
Posted from: 170.140.56.67
January 26th, 2008 18:47
Has there ever been a coach to coach (more than one) students at the TOC and never have one not clear?
Posted from: 205.134.251.132
January 30th, 2008 09:06
[…] noted in Ask Cruz: Volume III, there have been three freshmen to qualify for the […]
Posted from: 24.6.159.5
March 8th, 2008 19:24
I agree with some of the earlier posts about us juniors. Class of ‘09 for the win!
Posted from: 62.149.67.49
August 20th, 2008 23:34
gushing teen pussy