Alex Koren Wins Wake Forest
WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. — Congratulations to Pennsylvania Leadership Charter School’s Alex Koren and Montgomery Bell Academy’s Corey Metzman for advancing to the final round of the Wake Forest Earlybird! On a 2-1 decision, Alex defeated Corey to win the Wake Forest title. Congratulations are also in order for Grady High School’s Demarius Walker and Cary Academy’s Andy Flook for advancing to finals in the J.V. division; Demarius defeated Andy on a 3-0 decision to take the title. (Full results and coaching credits follow.)
Alex is self-coached. Corey is coached by Billy Tate, Spence Patton, and Ari Parker.
Demarius is coached by Mario Herrera and Brandon Sheats. Andy is coached by Carole Hamilton and R.J. Pellicciotta.
—
DOUBLES
Bronx Science VS def. Pinecrest AK (Ashlyn Karan)
Walt Whitman EM def. Lakeville North TC (Tom Caruso)
Unionville JG def. Upper St. Clair JG (J.P. Gooderham)
Montgomery Bell CM def. Niskayuna SD (Samit Dharia)
Harker DR def. Myers Park LS (Lucas Scholl)
Berkeley Carroll PD def. Hillsborough SC (Shashin Choksi)
Lakeville North PA over Lakeville North TT (Tyler Traub)
Penn Leadership AK def. Brentwood AP (Aaseesh Polavarapu)
Brophy College JL def. Lake Highland GB (Gurdane Bhutani)
Berkeley Carroll IB def. Brophy College KC (Kevin Coltin)
East Chapel Hill MS vs. Cary AC (Arjun Chandran)
Brophy Prep FW def. Desert Vista TY (Terri Yu)
Collegiate JY vs. Lakeville North SE (Steven Elliot)
Saint James WE def. Myers Park RJ (Rasesh Joshi)
Walt Whitman JK def. Atholton NK (Nikhil Karnik)
St. Joseph Prep RZ def. Walt Whitman CS (Caroline Sherrard)
OCTAS
Bronx Science VS def. Berkeley Carroll IB (Isaac Bloch)
Brophy Prep JL def. Walt Whitman JK (Jane Kessner)
Collegiate JY def. Lakeville North PA (Pat Arnold)
Montgomery Bell CM def. St. James WE (William Evans)
Harker DR def. Berkeley Carroll PD (Peter Damrosch)
Penn Leadership AK def. St. Joseph’s Prep RZ (Ryan Zehner)
East Chapel Hill MS def. Unionville JG (Jay Garlapati)
Brophy Prep FW def. Walt Whitman EM (Emily Massey)
QUARTERS
Bronx Science VS def. Harker DR (Deepa Ramakrishnan)
Brophy Prep FW over Brophy Prep JL (Jeff Lockhart)
Penn Leadership AK def. East Chapel Hill MS (Mohit Sahoo)
Montgomery Bell CM def. Collegiate JY (Jonathan Yip)
SEMIS
Montgomery Bell CM def. Bronx Science VS (Vineet Singal)
Penn Leadership AK def. Brophy Prep FW (Frank Willett)
FINALS
Penn Leadership AK def. Montgomery Bell CM (Corey Metzman)
CHAMPION
Penn Leadership AK (Alex Koren)
—
J.V. OCTAS
Mountain Brook CB def. Lake Highland SK (Sheena Karkal)
Lakeville North CE over Lakeville North BA (Alexandra Nelson)
Cary AF def. North Meklenburg IC (Ian Chesser)
Battle Ground GJ def. Saint James NG (Nicholas Gorman)
Grady DW def. Lakeville South KB (Kelsey Buehrer)
Ft. Lauderdale NA def. East Chapel Hill NW (Nancy Wang)
Asheville EH def. Mountain Brook LE (Lizzie Ernstberger)
Mauldin ET def. Battle Ground ZM (Zach Marlette)
J.V. QUARTERS
Battle Ground GJ def. Ft. Lauderdale NA (Norah Ashoura)
Grady DW def. Mauldin ET (Emily Taylor)
Cary AF def. Lakeville North CE (Catherine Eichmann)
Mountain Brook CB def. Asheville EH (Eva Humphrey)
J.V. SEMIS
Cary AF def. Battle Ground GJ (Garrett Jackson)
Grady DW def. Mountain Brook CB (Carter Beilen)
J.V FINALS
Grady DW def. Cary AF (Andy Flook)
J.V. CHAMPION
Grady DW (Demarius Walker)
—
Full results of the remaining categories are forthcoming.
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172 Responses to “Alex Koren Wins Wake Forest”
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Posted from: 205.134.251.132
September 16th, 2007 06:00
[…] Wake Forest Earlybird: Doubles pairings have been posted. Thank you, Hannah Rothman and Tyler Traub! […]
Posted from: 64.53.94.70
September 16th, 2007 06:26
Go MP Mustang LD Debate! Good luck Lucas and Rasesh!
Posted from: 24.151.21.99
September 16th, 2007 06:56
congrats Nikhil its time to bid!
Posted from: 75.182.76.45
September 16th, 2007 07:15
congrats Arjun!
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 07:17
Bronx Science VS def. Pinecrest AK
Harker DR def. Myers Park LS
Pennsylvania Leadership AK def. Brentwood AP
Unionville JG def. Upper St. Clair JG
Posted from: 152.17.53.163
September 16th, 2007 07:24
MBA CM def. Niskeyuna SD (Sam Dharia)
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 16th, 2007 07:42
WARNING: DON’T COACH OVER T-SHELL
Posted from: 68.108.104.144
September 16th, 2007 07:44
Good job sheena!
Posted from: 76.170.34.41
September 16th, 2007 07:54
VINEEEEEEEEEET
Posted from: 68.192.165.197
September 16th, 2007 08:09
Congrats Nikhil and Shashin!
Posted from: 152.17.58.139
September 16th, 2007 08:10
It looks like you posted the JV policy quarters as the JV LD quarters.
The real JV LD quarters are:
Battle Ground GJ vs. Ft. Lauderdale NA
Henry W. Grady DW vs. Mauldin ET
Lakeville North CE vs. Cary Academy AF
Mountain Brook CB vs. Asheville EH
Congratulations Andy!
Posted from: 152.17.62.182
September 16th, 2007 08:34
varsity rounds:
Bronx Science VS vs Berkeley Carroll IB (Massey, Charrier, Nath)
Brophy JL vs Walt Whitman JK (Huberlie, Tartelton, Roberts)
Lakeville PA vs Collegiate JY (Hornstein, Robinson, Brundage)
Montgomery Bell CM vs St. James WE (Musgrove, Powers, Willock)
Harker DR vs Berkeley Carroll PD (Sheats, McClure, Weiner)
Penn. Leadership AK vs St. Joseph’s Prep (Berryhill, Mumper, Davis)
Unionville Jg vs East Chapel Hill MS (Pellicciota, Eller, Viera)
Walt Whitman EM vs Brophy FW (Fon, Defranco?, Justowiak)
[from GAForensics.com]
Posted from: 74.70.119.78
September 16th, 2007 08:47
Nice Dharia, hope you bid.
Posted from: 24.215.130.4
September 16th, 2007 08:47
good luck vineet!
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
September 16th, 2007 08:51
Good job dharia!
Also congrats to Jonathan Yip, get that bid!
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 16th, 2007 08:52
wow there is another Varun?!
Posted from: 24.161.65.27
September 16th, 2007 09:03
Keep it up Catherine and Vineet
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 09:09
Congrats Emily and Jane!
Put fear into their hearts and Own It Up
Congrats to Caroline too for getting to Dubs
Way to “break” into the scene
Ben
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 09:27
Congratulations, Vineet, on your first bid round!
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:29
I will post as i hear who picks up
Collegiate JY Over Lakeville North PA
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 09:35
Alex
Congratulations Alex.
Posted from: 71.82.134.10
September 16th, 2007 09:36
thanks tyler for keepin us posted back here in MN
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:38
Harker DP over berkeley Carroll PD
Montgomery Bell Academy CM over Saint James WE
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:41
Lake Highland Prep GB over Walt Whitman JK
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:41
Sorry that might not be correct. Waiting to hear. Someone thought they were sure.
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:46
East Chapel Hill MS over Unionville JG
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 09:47
Any news on Pennsylvania Leadership?
Good luck Alex
Posted from: 152.17.55.92
September 16th, 2007 09:49
Bronx Science VS over Berkeley Carrol IB
Pennsylvania Leadership AK over St. Joseph Prep RZ
Brophy College Prep FW over Walt Whitman EM
Brophy College Prep JL over Walt Whitman JK (this is the corrected one from the other post)
Thanks to Christian Keil for this. He wants the credit back.
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 09:51
Thanks everyone for all your updates. We really appreciate it. Go Alex from grandma and grandpa
Posted from: 72.229.114.211
September 16th, 2007 09:56
Congrats, Vineet, on your first BID!!
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 10:04
VINEET! I told you on the phone, but I’ll say it here, too: I am so proud of you.
Posted from: 24.161.65.27
September 16th, 2007 10:08
Congrats on your bid Vineet. Keep it up.
Posted from: 208.120.31.99
September 16th, 2007 10:13
BOOYAH VINEET.
DUDE. I AM SO PROUD OF YOU THAT IT’S OVERWHELMING ME. I AM SO EXCITED FOR YOU.
YOU TOTALLY DESERVE THIS. I NEED TO UNCAP LOCK.
Posted from: 69.249.94.148
September 16th, 2007 10:15
congrats on the bid vineet!
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 10:27
Hey bill where are those posts??
Posted from: 24.215.130.4
September 16th, 2007 10:31
congratz on the bid vineet!
Posted from: 152.17.52.77
September 16th, 2007 10:31
UPDATES FROM WAKE FOREST:
QUARTERS:
BRONX SCIENCE VS V. HARKER DR
(MUSGROVE, HORNSTEIN, MUMPER)
BROPHY FW OVER BROPHY JL
EAST CHAPEL HILL MS V. PENN LEADERSHIP AK
(MASSEY, HUBERLIE, NELSON)
MBA CM V. COLLEGIATE JY
(PELLICCIOTI, CHARRIER, WEINER)
THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR COMING!
Posted from: 70.194.215.87
September 16th, 2007 10:42
CONGRATS VINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!
you rock.
Posted from: 24.44.61.121
September 16th, 2007 10:46
Vineet, you are my idol
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 10:48
To paraphrase you Vineet, I am overcome with joy.
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 10:49
Great success!
Posted from: 69.118.230.217
September 16th, 2007 10:50
Congrats Vineet…keep it up
Posted from: 71.247.17.90
September 16th, 2007 11:00
CONGRATS VINEET!!!!
Posted from: 150.108.232.25
September 16th, 2007 11:01
CONGRATS ON YOUR FIRST BID VINEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE AMAZING!!!! I’M SOO PROUD OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ROCK MY WORLD!!!!!
Posted from: 152.17.54.182
September 16th, 2007 11:25
GA Forensics has the JV results:
Cary Academy AF def St. James
Grady DW def. Mountain Brook
Posted from: 24.151.21.99
September 16th, 2007 11:30
congrats on the bid Vineet !
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 11:35
any news on alex koren and pennsylvania leadership?
Posted from: 152.17.118.112
September 16th, 2007 11:41
I feel left out from the reporting, so here’s quarters.
Bronx Science VS beats Harker DR on a 2-1
Brophy Prep FW over Brophy Prep JL
Pennsylvania Leadership AK beats East Chapel Hill MS
Montgomery Bell CM beats Collegiate JY
Posted from: 192.128.166.68
September 16th, 2007 11:44
Go Alex - Quarter Finals! Way to go… Wish we were there.
Posted from: 71.183.210.42
September 16th, 2007 11:44
congrats to vineet on his first bid! amazing job!
Posted from: 152.17.118.112
September 16th, 2007 11:45
Semis:
MBA CM vs. Brophy Prep FW
Bronx Science VS vs. Pennsylvania Leadership AK
Posted from: 67.170.245.168
September 16th, 2007 11:47
ALEX KOREN IS GOING TO WIN. That is all
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 11:48
Go alex
congratulations on making the quarter finals
Posted from: 75.182.76.45
September 16th, 2007 11:52
Keep ‘em coming Andy. Congrats.
Posted from: 146.115.112.5
September 16th, 2007 12:04
congrats to all the LDers, but on the PFD side of things:
GO LEXINGTON BK, HOME OF THE WHOPPER
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 12:10
The LD pairings posted are wrong. Bronx Science VS is hitting MBA CM.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 16th, 2007 12:14
Nice job Vineet!
Posted from: 70.59.108.142
September 16th, 2007 12:20
Way to go Emily and Jane!!
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 16th, 2007 12:38
Yes vineet. when you win Wake please make sure you mention the person who gave you divine debating skillz.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 16th, 2007 12:39
his coach/parents? lol
Posted from: 72.201.13.182
September 16th, 2007 12:41
Congrats to all the AZ kids.
You all did amazing!!!
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 16th, 2007 12:42
i was joking, i was referring to myself :P but yea probably his coach would be a more deserved praise.
Posted from: 98.199.179.122
September 16th, 2007 12:47
go go go metzman and damrosch
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 16th, 2007 12:48
I’d like everybody to know that I’m not that upset that T-Shell got coached over… I only cried for about an hour or so. There will be no violence.
Posted from: 141.156.166.155
September 16th, 2007 12:48
Congrats Whitman! Awesome job Caroline for breaking, and for getting to a bid round Jane and Emily all as sophomores!
Posted from: 71.249.65.165
September 16th, 2007 12:55
Congrats Vineet on your first *BID* !
Posted from: 71.198.40.174
September 16th, 2007 13:03
Conrats Vineet!
Posted from: 208.120.31.99
September 16th, 2007 13:16
At this point Vineet, I am living vicariously through you.
Posted from: 152.17.53.98
September 16th, 2007 13:20
Montgomery Bell CM just picked up on a 3-0 against Bronx Science VS in Semis
Posted from: 152.17.62.182
September 16th, 2007 13:24
the final round in varsity:
MBA CM vs PA Leadersip AK
from GAForensics.com
Posted from: 69.118.235.253
September 16th, 2007 13:28
Corey - do you have blocks to nanotech?
Posted from: 152.3.71.49
September 16th, 2007 13:31
who won JV LD?
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 13:34
YEAhhhhhh Alex
Congratulations….One more to go.
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 13:35
CONGRATULATIONS VINEET!!!!
Posted from: 129.62.101.99
September 16th, 2007 13:45
congrats metzman on the bid. now finish this off and make it two years as champ
Posted from: 152.17.115.74
September 16th, 2007 13:48
From GA Forensics:
Demarius Walker, from Henry W. Grady in Atlanta, won the JV Lincoln-Douglas Division on a 3-0 decision.
He’s coached by Brandon Sheats and Mario Herrera.
Posted from: 75.72.54.79
September 16th, 2007 14:01
Congrats to Isaac and Marc Wallach, who would have broken had it not been for a tab error.
Posted from: 24.46.207.84
September 16th, 2007 14:02
Congrats to Dharia
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 16th, 2007 14:14
I lost to Alex on a 2-1? Huberlie, Massey, DeFranco*
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 16th, 2007 14:24
Congrats to Corey and ALex for getting to finals! Alex just write aff on a piece of paper and show it to the judges! Youll win!
Posted from: 24.172.9.62
September 16th, 2007 14:47
I got a text from someone in finals that Alex (Penn Leadership AK) won.
Posted from: 74.70.109.145
September 16th, 2007 14:48
Koren is such a beast, reppin the tourvillains
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 14:49
Congrats to Alex and Frank. You have earned your keep ;-)
- Proud Lab Leader
Posted from: 74.70.112.133
September 16th, 2007 14:58
Koren 2-1 over Metzman
*Nelson, Rothman, idk
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 16th, 2007 15:19
Congrats to Alex and congrats to everyone who also got a bid
Posted from: 162.84.185.91
September 16th, 2007 15:44
Congrats Vineet!
Nice Job.
Posted from: 66.27.96.17
September 16th, 2007 15:46
Awesome job Vineet!
Posted from: 162.84.185.91
September 16th, 2007 15:47
GRRRRR Do policy updates Cruzzypoo!
Posted from: 64.91.160.27
September 16th, 2007 16:20
A HUGE congrats to my UTNIF roommate, Jeff Lockhart (Brophy Prep JL) on getting a bid. All your hard work payed off!
Posted from: 65.88.9.138
September 16th, 2007 16:33
VINEET
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 16th, 2007 16:42
Way to go Alex Yeahhhh
Posted from: 67.170.245.168
September 16th, 2007 16:44
Good Job Alex.
Posted from: 69.249.94.148
September 16th, 2007 16:48
does anybody know if there will be a results packet online?
Posted from: 70.150.82.123
September 16th, 2007 16:51
Also, I’d like to give Fayette County BD (Eric Bogert/Trusha Daya) some credit in Public Forum. They held a 4-2 record - however DUE TO a Computer Error - they were left out of the Double Octofinal round. Wake Forest Tournament Officials have confirmed that they will still be awarded a Double Octofinalist Trophy!
Posted from: 71.60.209.85
September 16th, 2007 17:14
Nice work Koren.
Tourvillains rule.
Posted from: 72.225.239.241
September 16th, 2007 18:11
vineet is the man, and i am so glad that he got this bid, i know of no person who deserves it more then him, and am extremely excited to see what else he does this year.
Posted from: 70.231.154.133
September 16th, 2007 18:32
koren owes me money. and lots of sodas.
Posted from: 68.19.55.147
September 16th, 2007 18:55
GO DJ!
Posted from: 68.116.144.219
September 16th, 2007 18:56
congrats arjun and andy!!
Posted from: 72.229.161.142
September 16th, 2007 18:57
“BIRD!” good job Vineet!
Posted from: 65.9.136.74
September 16th, 2007 19:21
Who Won in public Forum?
Posted from: 67.180.141.133
September 16th, 2007 19:51
“alex is self-coached”…wow. That’s impressive…
Posted from: 68.202.157.24
September 16th, 2007 20:52
Sheena you are my diva and Gurdane you are a grenade. That is all.
Posted from: 24.115.128.87
September 16th, 2007 21:19
Akex anmazubg job, and tab did a good job geting us out of there by 530 too so congrats to both…but ALEX YOU DESERVE THE WIN!!!!!
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 16th, 2007 21:27
TOURVILLAINS OWN!
Alex is the man, the self coached man.
anyway- to everyone thats congratulating vineet. (not to take away from his amazing job in elims) he technically didnt deserve to be there.
There was a problem with his round 2 speaks. The judge (juli kelly) gave him 27, and it says he got a 29. This gave him the speaks to break.
Also, congrats to march wallach who deserved to break but was stopped by another tab room error.
Posted from: 69.248.7.220
September 16th, 2007 21:45
dude alex, you’re the man, alright? You’re just the freaking man, ok? steal my bid…but for real, thats sick. congrats. and congrats to jp and jay too. we’ll get more pa bids eventually.
Posted from: 69.151.219.61
September 16th, 2007 22:16
VINEET
Posted from: 76.17.18.199
September 16th, 2007 23:02
akex was awesome! congrats to him.
Posted from: 208.120.31.99
September 17th, 2007 02:37
I just figured out the meaning to “sour grapes.”
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 17th, 2007 08:11
I didn’t mean to be rude or anything- i just wanted to give march wallach congrats were it was due.
Vineet is a great debater and he was great enough to do as well as he did, but that should have been March Wallach who broke as a 5-1 with high speaks and not a 4-2 with low speaks (the other error in tab).
I just wanted to give March some props.
Also, I think that Lakeville North PA is Pat Arnold.
Posted from: 152.17.54.210
September 17th, 2007 09:58
Re: Niskayuna SD
I was in tab all weekend. I received the ballot you’re referring to on which Vineet was originally given 25 speaker points, Juli Kelly (the judge) returned to the ballot table 10 minutes later and changed his speaker points to a 29. Since there was open tab Vineet had seen that he originally got a 25 and I made a point to find him and let him know that he was still in the tournament and that his judge has given him more points, having not realized what the tournament’s speaker point scale was.
In the future you’d be better off keeping such comments to yourself.
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 17th, 2007 10:25
I’m sorry if I offended anyone, but Juli Kelly told me she changed it to a 27. I guess it was a misunderstanding.
Posted from: 12.5.250.229
September 17th, 2007 12:25
I’ve been a big Marc Wallach fan for a while, and I’ve already talked to him about the tab error in question. If such an error happened, I think it definitely makes sense to acknowledge the error publicly.
It seems an odd choice to me, though, to frame mentioning this unfortunate tab error as a “response” to people congratulating Vineet, who made it to semifinals after an incredibly difficult outround draw.
The Wake Forest tab room put out an on-time tournament despite the fact that the senior tab director was absent at the last minute due to a family tragedy. There was a less-experienced tab room staff, and it seems an error happened. Such errors sometimes happen at tournaments, including TOC-qualifying ones.
I know when people pointed out that Melanie Plaza didn’t clear at the Newark Debates last year on account of a tab error, it wasn’t framed as a “response” to the people congratulating the person who advanced in her place.
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 17th, 2007 12:35
Sorry for my poor choice of words- I only meant to be informative and I didn’t want to take away from what Vineet did. He was great in the outrounds I saw him in (IE vs. Deepa and Metzman).
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 17th, 2007 13:28
This is the completely wrong place to post this, but I don’t know where else to put it. I think I speak for the entire debate community when I politely ask: WHEN ARE THE RANKINGS COMING?!?!?!?! I, for one, am dying of anticipation.
Posted from: 70.216.43.146
September 17th, 2007 13:51
Vineet, actually, is the one doing the data entry for it. I am assuming it’s coming soon!
From the DFW Airport,
jc
Posted from: 198.86.93.254
September 17th, 2007 14:00
People are too uptight honestly.. he wasnt making a dig at Vineet, he predicated his response by saying that he wasnt taking away from how far he advanced. Furthermore, I doubt Vineet cares, he got to semis..
Posted from: 24.90.71.209
September 17th, 2007 14:18
While I agree that it makes no sense to not congratulate Vineet for an excellent tourmanet run to semi’s, I am still a bit unnerved about the tabulation error. I’ve never been to a tournament where I know of two tab errors in prelims, then managed to post the wrong debater on the schems in outrounds three straight times. While I am always very appreciative for those that are behind the scenes, at some point the errors become a little too frustrating.
Especially considering the response to Marc from someone running tab after the problem was discovered was basically “sorry,” and then running away to take care of whatever else. Sorry indeed, but the problem seems grave to me when people are spending near $1000 to come to a tournament with one specific purpose and that did not seem respected. I understand that restrospectively there is nothing you can do, but compassion for a error as monumental as that would not hurt.
Combined with judge changes (in outrounds, and not alerting the debaters/coach!), I felt that Wake was just a tournament trying to get through the day without totally breaking down.
Posted from: 24.131.201.49
September 17th, 2007 14:25
am i the only one who thinks its probably not ok to change your speaks after you turn in a ballot? whats the ’statute of limitations’ so to speak on that? or if i change my mind about the winner (perhaps under duress from an angry coach), can i go to tab and change my ballot? where im from, once a ballot is in, its in.
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 17th, 2007 14:31
The changing of speaks after handing in the ballot was because Vineet confronted Juli about the 25, and she felt like giving him a a 27 would get him off of her back.
(She was judging for me, so she told me.)
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 17th, 2007 14:42
NiksayunaSD- can you just shut up? You’ve already had to apologize for one stupid thing you said, so just let it be. Regardless of whether or not that post is true, those statements are the type that have one end result- a flame war. Either congratulate Vineet or don’t write anything; criticizing him doesn’t lead to much good.
Posted from: 74.70.110.205
September 17th, 2007 14:51
I didn’t criticize Vineet once. He is a very good debater, and if I got a 25 I would confront the judge too.
I confront judges a lot of times (Juli is just too nice, so she gave him the 27. Also, it was like 11 PM and we just wanted to get back to the hotel.)
I just explained what happened.
Posted from: 205.188.116.76
September 17th, 2007 14:52
At this point I think it does little to get into specifics of what happened between debaters and judges. If there were serious errors with the tab system/staff at Wake, discuss the problems and/or don’t go next season. Try to focus on constructive criticism for the tournament as I’m sure many of their staff members will be reading this thread. Congratulations to all who did well this weekend.
Posted from: 70.216.152.65
September 17th, 2007 15:12
I find it very hard to imagine Vineet, one of the most passive people I know, engaged in the kind of confrontation described above, and I take his word when he tells me that the above story is not accurate. In any case, the ballot says a 29.
Not to mention that, as I understand it, Marc did not clear because the tabulation error made him a 3-3 instead of a 4-2, not a 5-1 with low speaks instead of a 4-2 with low speaks. So, while I do not have the numbers in front of me, the initial claim that Vineet would automatically not have cleared is based on incorrect information. A likelier scenario is that Marc would have cleared in place of the other debater, and perhaps some of the seeds would have been different.
In any case, congratulations to all. And my regrets to Marc, a very fine debater and fellow Manhattaner who will no doubt have many awesome showings throughout this season.
Posted from: 64.12.116.76
September 17th, 2007 15:30
Congrats Jane and Emily, you guys are insane, awesome job! Also congrats to caroline for doubles and Alex and Aaron in PF. And congrats to Alex K on the bid and the win, really amazing, you broke out of the box of autonomy hahah, wtg
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 17th, 2007 15:35
Despite what others believe, i think vineet “technically deserves to break” because he is a great debater and a great person.
Congratulations vineet and everyone else who went to wake.
Posted from: 69.181.125.125
September 17th, 2007 15:46
the notion of “confronting” a judge because he or she gave you 25 speaks is absolutely uncalled for. judges have different scales; for some, 25 is average, for others it is quite low. if you want higher speaks, debate better–the sense of entitlement displayed in a lot of these posts is ridiculous.
Posted from: 38.118.12.10
September 17th, 2007 16:00
Hey - big props to Vineet! Tab error or not, he easily proved he deserved to be there by going through that impressive list of competitors.
Also, I really just wanted to congratulate the trio of Whitman sophomores — Jane, Emily, and Caroline — who all basically made their varsity TOC debut. To break at a national tournament at the first tournament of your sophomore year is something, but even moreso to be in the top 10 speakers (Caroline) or to be in the TOC bid round (Jane and Em) is something extraordinary. I am so very very proud of you, and really excited for your great futures in the activity!
Posted from: 70.20.149.56
September 17th, 2007 16:01
way to go jay and ryan on breaking
way to bid jeff lockhart!!!
awesome job alex on winnning the tournament :p
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 17th, 2007 16:03
I don’t think anybody thinks that Vineet was just “entitled” to the bid. At least in my mind, the whole problem was that I felt that it wasn’t right to bring up all of these problems as a way of invalidating Vineet’s performance. Either congratulate Vineet or don’t say anything, but please do not use this as a means to distribute your criticisms to a larger base of readers.
Posted from: 71.244.93.10
September 17th, 2007 16:03
Curious George: Reading thoroughly is clearly not at the top of your priorities.
Posted from: 24.44.61.121
September 17th, 2007 16:08
Re: Curious George
I disagree with the notion that you think we seem to be entitling ourselves to something. Debate (as many debaters would argue in a round :-)) is an educational activity, that doesn’t necessarily end when the ballot is filled out and signed. I find nothing wrong with asking a judge about a decision. Why shouldn’t we be able to make an inquiry about what seems to be a judge’s reaction to a poor showing. Also, what if the judge made a mistake, and genuinely did not understand the speaker point scale at that specific tournament? I would say that we are in fact entitled to ask a judge about a round after the round is over. Otherwise, what’s the point? Points and a win or loss don’t mean anything to us unless we can improve upon them…
Also, congratulations vineet. I’m talking to you online right now and am so ecstatic about your bid!
Posted from: 69.249.94.148
September 17th, 2007 16:26
curious george:
since I was haning out with vineet for most of the tournament, i can tell you from first hand experience that he never confronted the judge.
completely disregarding the confrontation, vineet was posted as a breaking seed even with the 25 speaks. so he should’ve been in outrounds from the start, speaks change or not, and was totally deserving of his bid and semis appearence.
Posted from: 24.90.71.209
September 17th, 2007 16:57
Also, I just wanted to clarify that nobody from Collegiate (especially myself) is angry about the situation or thinks someone else should not have cleared. I worry when people keep saying “Marc should have cleared! Vineet shouldnt have!” that they will attribute some of that hostility towards us. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Posted from: 24.131.201.49
September 17th, 2007 17:00
yeah so im still wondering why changing speaks is ever ok. outside of ‘nuh-uh’ vs ‘uh-huh!’ bullshit, the most reliable source we have (tab room staff) says the judge decided to change the ballot. why would a tab room allow that given the risk of intimidation (whether it happened here or not)?
Posted from: 208.120.31.99
September 17th, 2007 17:13
Michael: This response is totally unrelated to the flame war but confusion regarding the scale of speaker points is actually a legitimate reason for the changing the speaks.
If someone comes from an area where 25 is very good and anything higher is rarely given (like middle school debate) and the average for very good at a given tournament is 28 then it’s not an accurate reflection of what they were intending to give.
Low speaks are not always necessarily reflective of a debater’s performance. If a person thought the scale was from 1-30 (I’m not sure if it is indicated on the ballot what the speaks are) then 20 would have been in the very good range.
Additionally, there are tournaments which change obscenely low speaks (~lower than ten) to higher ones.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 17th, 2007 17:18
Was it really necessary to call it a “flame war”
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 17th, 2007 17:19
I kind of wanted to stop it before it escalated to “flame war” status. Oh well.
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 17th, 2007 17:24
Yes it has been called to its subject position :P
Posted from: 68.164.242.124
September 17th, 2007 17:41
congrats alex
Posted from: 216.203.112.164
September 17th, 2007 17:54
Congrats, Alex. Way to represent the lab.
Posted from: 206.8.10.4
September 17th, 2007 18:48
congrats corey!!
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 17th, 2007 19:02
I think everyone is clearly making way too big of a deal of a situation that is not that big, and thats leading to a lot of unfair criticism. I watched Hannah being forced to take a break because she was assaulted every two seconds by someone that had some request from her (including me many times). Hannah was keeping track of peoples rounds, scores for debaters, giving out seeds, printing of schems and ballots, maintaining an open tab which is rare and probable other things that I havnt mentioned because I dont know that much about the inner most workings of the tab room. It seems quite unfair that you guys keep making digs at a tournament that really didnt have that many problems. I felt it ran on time, and in many tournaments where I get back to the hotel at 1 AM only to wake up at 5 the next morning.. Wake clearly kept on track for most of the time. Now I know some people are going to say well you dont know anything about this since you cleared, but I had the same thing happen to me last year, and even though I resented it for a while I realized that I was one mistake out of a potential of millions.
Furthermore, the Vineet shouldnt have broken argument is utterly stupid and should just stop. He clearly deserves to advance as a debater, and there were numerous other debaters that deserve to advance. I think that everyone should just take Niskayuna’s point that another debater should have advanced at that seed at face value and stop seeing this as a dig at Vineet. Again he got to semis, which proves himself a and b he cleraly doesnt care. He got to semis others didnt
Posted from: 66.108.84.93
September 17th, 2007 21:03
Michael raises an interesting issue. (I didn’t even notice the post earlier, my apologies.) I can remember a time I accidentally flipped the speaks on a flight A and flight B ballot at an area tournament (I want to say it was Manchester or Monticello but I could be wrong) a few years back, and I went back to tab to ask to see the ballots a few minutes after because it suddenly occured to me that I made this mistake.
I’ve directed tab rooms at a bunch of tournaments and I know that many judges, especially less experienced ones, make similar mistakes. I think for that kind of change, you probably should allow the judge to switch the speaks.
There have also been times at our local Mid-Hudson League tournaments where judges have wanted to adjust speaks because they realize their speaks may not have been in accordance with our league’s speaker point scale. (The MHL Is a training league for novices.) Jim Menick and I tab and have even pointed out to judges when speaker points may not be in accordance with the tournament scale.
I realize that these aren’t the kinds of changes that happened here, but my point is that it that some kinds of changes or speaker point issues, especially with newer judges, probably ought to be considered on a case-by-case basis by the tab room.
Posted from: 24.90.71.209
September 17th, 2007 21:10
To Mo
I think how you’re going about it is wrong. Thats fine, you can make the argument that with the resources available, Hannah did the best she could. My problem is that it still was not enough. Do I fault her? No, I think the tournament has a pretty enormous problem if it is having someone new to tabbing run a 160+ person major tournament without adequate help.
Wake is not a league tournament. It is a TOC-at-quarterfinals bid, and expensive to go to. At that level I dont think it is unfair to expect some level of competance, and to question it when what we got was not sufficient. Who are you to say that because someone “did their best,” our criticism is misguided and unfair? Absolutely ridiculous.
If anything, most everyone has kept their qualms relatively quiet. There are seriously deeper issues than just the tabulation error(s), those just happen to have the most obvious and direct effects. You can reiterate how they kept on time and had open tab, as well as all the other wonderful benefits of the tournament. But I would trade all those things for what the tournament lacked. And trust me when I say that bid level is not determined by on-timeness.
Posted from: 146.115.112.5
September 18th, 2007 02:27
congrats to everyone…also…are there any pics of alex koren from years past on VB? the name sounds familiar and i’m trying to figure out if i know him from camp/another tournament
Posted from: 38.117.182.130
September 18th, 2007 07:20
Fisch writes in post 130: “Either congratulate Vineet or don’t say anything, but please do not use this as a means to distribute your criticisms to a larger base of readers.”
Why shouldn’t he use this, uh, website, to distribute his criticisms to a larger base of readers? Are we really limited to either congratulating Vineet or not saying anything?
Flame wars are not the greatest evil to be avoided - I read through Niskayuna’s posts, and they seem polite in raising concerns about the tabbing process - certainly not of the “shut the hell up” variety that you have added…
Posted from: 166.109.0.155
September 18th, 2007 08:53
Fisch is tired. Please do not bring him back into this. The post in question (130) addressed the direct criticism of Vineet. I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with criticizing tournaments or systems of tabulation. Rather, I did not like the criticism of Vineet as “undeserving” and pretty much a whiner who was able to get his way. That post was written mainly in response to number 127 by a certain “curious george.” Maybe if you link the two together it will seem a bit more appropriate.
Posted from: 167.206.203.14
September 18th, 2007 08:53
YEAH VINEET!!!!!!
Posted from: 38.117.182.130
September 18th, 2007 08:58
Just to clarify - I really have no opinion about the underlying dispute (other than to agree with Michael that judges should not change ballots after they submitted them to the tab room, unless they forgot to fill in the winner or something). Nor do I think that the outround accomplishments of someone should be diminished, even if there was a tab room error during prelims (which may or may not have happened here) - indeed, navigating outrounds is far more impressive (and far more reflective of a debaters ability) than the speaker points from prelim.
What I was struck with is how quickly we decry someone’s ability to speak, when we are supposed to be engaged in an activity that at leasts pay lip service to ideas of free speech and discussion. As someone who has been told (unironically) that debate would be better without people like me, I am sensitive to this tendency. Sometimes discussions would have implications for people we care about - right now, it might be discussions about tab room errors and friends from high schools - at a later point in your life, it might be discussions that appear in the newspapers. That is the rather personal cost of the business we are in - but you lose the high ground when you frame the discussion as whether someone can voice their opinion or not.
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 18th, 2007 12:28
I agree Sean, I didnt mean to say it that you cant voice your concern, if it was me I would be mad as well. I just feel that some people really took this error as an insult directed at them, when I really dont think he tried to insult Vineet. He was just pointing out an error.
I agree that Wake could do better in cleaning it up, but sometimes some errors happen and I think that theres not much you can do about it now. And clearly some people are going to take some things people say personally when it really isnt meant to be. For example, nothing I say towards anyone is meant to cause affront. Since you were my judge 4th round I know you clearly are a smart individual and know your stuff so again I dont mean to cause insult.
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 18th, 2007 12:31
Oh, wait after reading what Sean wrote agn, I think mmy previous post didnt really adress that. I dont know about anything else that went wrong at tab, I just wanted to make sure no one was attacking Hannah or anything because she clearly was working as hard as anyone could
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 12:34
“The changing of speaks after handing in the ballot was because Vineet confronted Juli about the 25, and she felt like giving him a a 27 would get him off of her back.
(She was judging for me, so she told me.)” (NiksayunaSD, Post 120)
That, at least to me, can be interpreted as an insult to Vineet.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 12:36
That last post was because I think I was referred to in post 150? If not, then disregard.
Posted from: 38.117.182.130
September 18th, 2007 13:17
I am not sure I follow at all…
Whether or not the comments were intended to or did insult someone, you lose the high ground when you make the question whether someone should be allowed to speak. You did this when you said comments should be limited to congratulations or nothing at all. Full stop.
Posted from: 169.226.75.118
September 18th, 2007 13:31
We’re a community of people who argue, what do you expect? On the actual issues, I would say that I have read through all of Dharias posts, and I really don’t think that they were of a negative nature. Obviously both debaters did well, obviously both are good debaters. I do not think that bringing notice to a specific error at a specific level of a specific tournament at all changes any of that. Congrats to them both.
I am, however, worried about the attitude which seemed to be thrown at him as soon as he said a word different than “GO GO GO RAH RAH RAH.” And the implication that this place should not be used to bring problems with into the light in a constructive fashion is ludicrous to me. If there are problems with a way that a tournament has been run, I can’t think of a better place to discuss that fact than this site.
And to all the people who WERE taking pot shots at the debater: Thats just terrible. Even if he did advance wrongly (which I don’t believe he did.) why does that mean you are entitled to attack him personally? Get over yourselves.
Finally, congrats to everyone who did well. Sorry I could not make it.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 13:32
If you’re referring to the post where I told Niksayuna to stop speaking, that was because he complained, was proved wrong, and then had the nerve to criticize Vineet for complaining. When I said shut up, I didn’t mean it in the way you (Bryce) interpreted it. I just wanted Niks to stop finding new ways to criticize Vineet.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 13:35
I can’t stand this. I’m done posting This is the last time I get involved in a flame war on VBD (hopefully). PEACE
P.S. THE TRIFECTA OWNS. PREPARE TO BE DESTROYED!
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 13:40
And can everybody stop misconstruing everything I say? It’s annoying to re-explain posts… when I said don’t post criticisms, I meant criticisms of individuals. I’m not an evil, close-minded person who tells people that they are banned from speaking ever again and flips out whenever people don’t say “GO GO GO RAH RAH RAH.” If you think so, please just re-read. Thanks.
Posted from: 65.33.216.205
September 18th, 2007 13:48
congrats corey, good work bringing another final round appearance to the confederacy.
also congrats to alex, demarius, and andy on their final round appearances; to gurdane, isaac, and peter on breaking; and to deepa (DPW) and vineet on bidding.
Posted from: 68.209.198.15
September 18th, 2007 13:53
jake can we have a DPW on vbd
Posted from: 169.229.32.138
September 18th, 2007 14:19
fisch–i wasn’t intending to undermine vineet’s accomplishments, he did much better than i ever did at wake forest. all i was trying to say is that debaters have no business “confronting” judges over a win or speaker points as if the judge had no reasonable justification for making the decision(s) he or she did. the attitude embodied in that action, whether or not vineet took it, is extraordinarily disrespectful. judge a couple (hundred) rounds and you’ll understand.
Posted from: 69.120.236.168
September 18th, 2007 14:23
lol it’s all good man sorry i misinterpreted what you wrote
Posted from: 68.117.61.136
September 18th, 2007 16:01
Congrats to Arjun, Isaac and The Lakeville team for breaking, Deepa for the bid and Metzman for finals.
I am not going to get in to the whole flame war thing, it is none of my business but, Marc, I am sorry about that tab error. I have no doubt that you would have done very well if given the chance. You are going to take some names this year.
Posted from: 209.180.33.87
September 18th, 2007 18:44
congrats corey, i’m sure hybrid courts was a smash hit at wake.
deepa, because of your success, there will not be a DPW on this thread (for now).
long live the confederacy.
Posted from: 74.67.55.150
September 18th, 2007 20:21
I think confront is a strong word. I don’t think I have ever seen a debater confront a judge. I do think I’ve seen them ask for a judges opinions, and discuss rounds with them after the fact. I am more than a little confidant that the latter is what went on. In which case, its a perfectly legitimate thing to do.
Posted from: 169.229.81.189
September 19th, 2007 02:17
“I don’t think I have ever seen a debater confront a judge”
Hahahahahaha.
I disagree.
Posted from: 24.90.71.209
September 19th, 2007 10:35
Mo
No worries, and I must have voted for you if you’re saying I’m smart :O
My point was simply this: that with a bid comes a certain level of responsibility. When I bring 4 kids to a quarters bid I expect a certain level from it, and Wake did not meet that. I dont fault a specific person or thing, it was just a collection of events leading to a general insufficiency.
Posted from: 69.134.16.205
September 19th, 2007 15:34
I understand, I guess i dont know about any of these other problems since none of them happned to me. So i guess I cant adress those? Maybe one of the Wake staff
Posted from: 75.75.79.41
September 20th, 2007 13:51
when are they posting results
Posted from: 72.232.151.8
September 25th, 2007 03:49
[…] Panther News: Gooderham Clears at Wake Forest Congratulations to JP Gooderham for clearing to double octafinals in Lincoln-Douglas Debate at the 2007 Wake Forest National Earlybird in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. […]
Posted from: 216.224.124.124
February 4th, 2008 13:17
Campgrounds in North Carolina…
Given the tradition of college basketball in North Carolina, it is often difficult to keep in mind the season ends in March. When it is over, you should spend some time in the beauty of the state by visiting the various campgrounds in North Carolina….