Comments on: Field Report: TOC (Policy)

By: jes jeang

jes jeang — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:40:39 +0000

i heart jonathan slotter :)

By: myost

myost — Wed, 09 May 2007 02:00:52 +0000

Some late thoughts– don’t interpret my comment a condemnation of GBN’s affluence. If they have the money to hire that many coaches, more power to them. I can’t claim I’d act any differently in their position.

That said, those that have managed to qualify for the TOC without all the resources that a Greenhill or a Glenbrooks does deserves to be commended all the more. Woodlands, for example, especially stands out, but to recognize all of the people that have done well in spite of the disproportionate resources of others would go beyond the scope of this comment.

A clarification, Drew and Neal from Jenks did not make it to where they have solely as a result of Blake or Conor’s help. Certainly, CJ helped Drew and Neal, but the two tournaments at which Jenks received bids (MBA and KCKCC) were the two tournaments where they did not get help from Conor and Blake. Additionally, all of their out-of-state tournaments (with the exception of Grapevine) were paid for on Drew and Neal’s own dime. Something to think about.

Certainly, some barriers to participation cannot be overcome (travel, especially). But much can be done. One example which comes to mind is something which I’ve heard the GDS touranment does- allow poor schools host families/free housing.

By: smarcus

smarcus — Sat, 05 May 2007 22:52:38 +0000

From a purely educational, skill level, pre-round coaching in debate is ridiculous… picking up plan texts and strategizing with your paid coach is not educational at all.

I’ve sat in classes in college with top debaters and thought that they’d make really insightful comments in discussions. False. They’re definitely hard workers, but it’s more the exception than the rule that the really smart, well versed kids do well in debate. It seems more likely that the well-coached kids do better.

Just some thoughts,

Steve

By: roytman

roytman — Thu, 03 May 2007 21:55:04 +0000

assure*

By: roytman

roytman — Thu, 03 May 2007 21:54:47 +0000

gbn has two policy teams entered, which makes the coaching ratio half as absurd
i would also like to assume everyone that the kids on that team with 7 coaches do as much or more work than any other high school debater, so their success is not simply a product of resources, it’s both. there were 15 to 20 other kids in the novice class our freshman year who are not as successful at policy debate as matt and steph who had the exact same resources.

By: judy

judy — Sat, 28 Apr 2007 02:39:22 +0000

Congrats to everyone who is attending and who qualified! Laura and Elyse= rock it up for me and Anne.

By: Elliot Carr-Lee

Elliot Carr-Lee — Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:13:24 +0000

The Alternative is to be aware of our own affluence. The worst thing the rich and powerfull can do is to believe that they got where they are because of something they did. We go to the TOC not because of some intrinsic quality we have that makes us better in some way, but because of biological and environmental advantages that we had nothing to do with. This can be best illustrated by the following analogy: did you ever choose to be smart, or rich, or choose any of the conditions that lead up to who you are?

Once we come to a realization that any of our sucesses in life were either pre-determined or random, (dilema of determinism) we realize that we are fundamentally no better or worse than anyone else. I think this kind of realization is critical to generating a sense of responsibility to use the power/wealth we have to better the world, and not merely to further our own personal/family/community/national interests. After all, what right do we have to what we have then anyone else?

Just my thoughts- sorry to offend anyone the belief’s of anyone who’s not a philoosophical naturalist/determinst.

By: Luke

Luke — Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:56:32 +0000

Capital GK is not on this list.

By: Scott Koslow

Scott Koslow — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:53:58 +0000

I don’t think there is one. Maybe programs like the UDL, I’m personally working with the policy coach at Norman high school to set up a partnership with one or more of the almost entirely black and hispanic schools in Oklahoma City that don’t currently have debate teams.

I was more responding to Tristan Vick’s comment which seemed to imply that GBN’s obscenely unequal resources are just a natural fact because GBN does more work.

By: michael mangus

michael mangus — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:10:26 +0000

scott, what’s the “alt”?

By: Scott Koslow

Scott Koslow — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:39:14 +0000

You’re right, almost any school traveling to the TOC is going to be among the richest schools in debate where only the rich schools even have debate squads, that just seems to lend more weight to my and Michael’s point. Also, though, Cameron Goldsmith and RJ Giglio came to Oklahoma last month and I hanged out with them (why I choose them as an example), financially the Caddo Magnet squad (or at least RJ and Cameron) is not the same as GBN.

And Jenks is the only school in Oklahoma that even goes to more than one bid tournament a year, and even then Blake largely volunteers his services as a coach for Drew and Neal.

By: darylpinto

darylpinto — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:49:04 +0000

scott- you do realize that caddo travels pretty extensively, right? in addition, i have a hard time believing that asher haig(who some say popularized/”invented” the K in hs debate) was a “cheap” pickup as a judge or a coach.

any team that qualifies to the toc, especially in policy, is probably not a good example of the disgusting inequalities in debate… the only team i dont recognize as a perenially toc team is jenks and their coach was arguably the best debater in college this year.

By: Scott Koslow

Scott Koslow — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:45:50 +0000

It’s just a particularly disgusting example of the inequality in debate.

By: Scott Koslow

Scott Koslow — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:44:53 +0000

Tristan, Michael’s (myost) point wasn’t “They’re rich, rich people suck.” Rather, they’re given every advantage possible when other schools have to hold back sales to get the money to go to the TOC. Honestly, I sucked through my junior year, up until Ernie started coaching me. Then I went from going 2/5 at GBN my junior year to 5/2, tied for the highest op-wins in the tournament, my senior year. I can’t imagine how my high school debate career would have gone if Ernie had coached me all four years I was in high school, or even just two years instead of one. And if I had the two time winner of the NDT, the winner of the TOC, the winner of NCFL nats, the winner of NFL nats, the winner of CEDA nats, top speaker of CEDA nats, multiple Copeland award winners, and the top speaker of the NDT (and I don’t know what the two coaches not listed there have accomplished) I think I could have done a bit better than I did.

I’ll be far more impressed if Caddo Magnet GG breaks (which they’re probably going to) than if GBN wins and get 1st and 2nd speaker (which they’re not going to), and I think Caddo breaking will be much more of an accomplishment and a proof of their skill in debate.

By: mjocon

mjocon — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:16:50 +0000

my bad

By: Dom

Dom — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:54:12 +0000

Jon, if you get entries in any of the other events, I’d appreciate seeing them here!

By: michael mangus

michael mangus — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:55:02 +0000

im making the trip w/ gbn on the LD side this year, but pawl has the full commitment. im not in the pool in part because i cant judge as a first-year. i agree w/ AT that itd be nice to have more LD judges in the pool but im not so sure there are enough people who travel w/ multiple coaches for it to make a difference.

By: Aaron Timmons

Aaron Timmons — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:41:57 +0000

The rationale for having each person in an entourage being available to judge at least a debate or two is that it helps the judge pool by providing more numbers and arguably increases the quality of the pool. It also helps avoid concerns of schools keeping excellent judges out of the pool in addition to helping with transparency (who is working with who).

It is a norm in policy I hope LD coaches will follow as well.

Just my thoughts

By: tristanvick

tristanvick — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:58:45 +0000

GBN isn’t obscenely rich. They have a large debate budget because they host the largest tournament in the nation hosted by a high school. Last year I think they brought 6 or 7 policy coaches so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did the same this year. Oh and for L-D they bring Paul Schiano, but he’s not that good at coaching…

By: myost

myost — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:01:41 +0000

correction – 7 judges

By: myost

myost — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:01:16 +0000

GBN’s hiring 5 judges because they’re obscenely rich.

By: Jon Cruz

Jon Cruz — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:28:49 +0000

Michael — I know. It’s under the policy coverage. :o)

I have not yet received a list for LD or PF or Congress.

By: nc

nc — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:24:26 +0000

Is there any reason as to why GBN is bringing like 5 judges for one team?

By: Robert Parker

Robert Parker — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:26:09 +0000

mjocon…I’m not sure it’s a mistake…it was filed under Policy Coverage after all…

By: mjocon

mjocon — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:28:41 +0000

jon, this is policy.