337625 Responseshttp://victorybriefsdaily.com/2007/04/23/field-report-toc-policy/Field+Report%3A+TOC+%28Policy%292007-04-23+17%3A32%3A42Jon+Cruz to “Field Report: TOC (Policy)”

1. mjocon
   Posted from: 68.109.250.194
   
   April 23rd, 2007 11:28
   1

   jon, this is policy.

2. Robert Parker
   Posted from: 24.176.242.93
   
   April 23rd, 2007 12:26
   2

   mjocon…I’m not sure it’s a mistake…it was filed under Policy Coverage after all…

3. nc
   Posted from: 208.120.181.25
   
   April 23rd, 2007 17:24
   3

   Is there any reason as to why GBN is bringing like 5 judges for one team?

4. Jon Cruz
   Posted from: 68.175.98.154
   
   April 23rd, 2007 17:28
   4

   Michael — I know. It’s under the policy coverage. :o)

   I have not yet received a list for LD or PF or Congress.

5. myost
   Posted from: 129.15.131.247
   
   April 24th, 2007 03:01
   5

   GBN’s hiring 5 judges because they’re obscenely rich.

6. myost
   Posted from: 129.15.131.247
   
   April 24th, 2007 03:01
   6

   correction – 7 judges

7. tristanvick
   Posted from: 129.115.251.33
   
   April 24th, 2007 08:58
   7

   GBN isn’t obscenely rich. They have a large debate budget because they host the largest tournament in the nation hosted by a high school. Last year I think they brought 6 or 7 policy coaches so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did the same this year. Oh and for L-D they bring Paul Schiano, but he’s not that good at coaching…

8. Aaron Timmons
   Posted from: 207.158.66.162
   
   April 24th, 2007 09:41
   8

   The rationale for having each person in an entourage being available to judge at least a debate or two is that it helps the judge pool by providing more numbers and arguably increases the quality of the pool. It also helps avoid concerns of schools keeping excellent judges out of the pool in addition to helping with transparency (who is working with who).

   It is a norm in policy I hope LD coaches will follow as well.

   Just my thoughts

9. michael mangus
   Posted from: 130.49.58.41
   
   April 24th, 2007 10:55
   9

   im making the trip w/ gbn on the LD side this year, but pawl has the full commitment. im not in the pool in part because i cant judge as a first-year. i agree w/ AT that itd be nice to have more LD judges in the pool but im not so sure there are enough people who travel w/ multiple coaches for it to make a difference.

10. Dom
    Posted from: 72.94.55.210
    
    April 24th, 2007 13:54
    10

    Jon, if you get entries in any of the other events, I’d appreciate seeing them here!

11. mjocon
    Posted from: 70.234.145.205
    
    April 24th, 2007 15:16
    11

    my bad

12. Scott Koslow
    Posted from: 204.180.72.192
    
    April 24th, 2007 15:44
    12

    Tristan, Michael’s (myost) point wasn’t “They’re rich, rich people suck.” Rather, they’re given every advantage possible when other schools have to hold back sales to get the money to go to the TOC. Honestly, I sucked through my junior year, up until Ernie started coaching me. Then I went from going 2/5 at GBN my junior year to 5/2, tied for the highest op-wins in the tournament, my senior year. I can’t imagine how my high school debate career would have gone if Ernie had coached me all four years I was in high school, or even just two years instead of one. And if I had the two time winner of the NDT, the winner of the TOC, the winner of NCFL nats, the winner of NFL nats, the winner of CEDA nats, top speaker of CEDA nats, multiple Copeland award winners, and the top speaker of the NDT (and I don’t know what the two coaches not listed there have accomplished) I think I could have done a bit better than I did.

    I’ll be far more impressed if Caddo Magnet GG breaks (which they’re probably going to) than if GBN wins and get 1st and 2nd speaker (which they’re not going to), and I think Caddo breaking will be much more of an accomplishment and a proof of their skill in debate.

13. Scott Koslow
    Posted from: 204.180.72.192
    
    April 24th, 2007 15:45
    13

    It’s just a particularly disgusting example of the inequality in debate.

14. darylpinto
    Posted from: 208.42.174.75
    
    April 24th, 2007 20:49
    14

    scott- you do realize that caddo travels pretty extensively, right? in addition, i have a hard time believing that asher haig(who some say popularized/”invented” the K in hs debate) was a “cheap” pickup as a judge or a coach.

    any team that qualifies to the toc, especially in policy, is probably not a good example of the disgusting inequalities in debate… the only team i dont recognize as a perenially toc team is jenks and their coach was arguably the best debater in college this year.

15. Scott Koslow
    Posted from: 204.180.72.192
    
    April 25th, 2007 02:39
    15

    You’re right, almost any school traveling to the TOC is going to be among the richest schools in debate where only the rich schools even have debate squads, that just seems to lend more weight to my and Michael’s point. Also, though, Cameron Goldsmith and RJ Giglio came to Oklahoma last month and I hanged out with them (why I choose them as an example), financially the Caddo Magnet squad (or at least RJ and Cameron) is not the same as GBN.

    And Jenks is the only school in Oklahoma that even goes to more than one bid tournament a year, and even then Blake largely volunteers his services as a coach for Drew and Neal.

16. michael mangus
    Posted from: 130.49.58.41
    
    April 25th, 2007 08:10
    16

    scott, what’s the “alt”?

17. Scott Koslow
    Posted from: 129.15.127.254
    
    April 25th, 2007 13:53
    17

    I don’t think there is one. Maybe programs like the UDL, I’m personally working with the policy coach at Norman high school to set up a partnership with one or more of the almost entirely black and hispanic schools in Oklahoma City that don’t currently have debate teams.

    I was more responding to Tristan Vick’s comment which seemed to imply that GBN’s obscenely unequal resources are just a natural fact because GBN does more work.

18. Luke
    Posted from: 209.63.190.118
    
    April 26th, 2007 12:56
    18

    Capital GK is not on this list.

19. Elliot Carr-Lee
    Posted from: 24.10.173.70
    
    April 26th, 2007 21:13
    19

    The Alternative is to be aware of our own affluence. The worst thing the rich and powerfull can do is to believe that they got where they are because of something they did. We go to the TOC not because of some intrinsic quality we have that makes us better in some way, but because of biological and environmental advantages that we had nothing to do with. This can be best illustrated by the following analogy: did you ever choose to be smart, or rich, or choose any of the conditions that lead up to who you are?

    Once we come to a realization that any of our sucesses in life were either pre-determined or random, (dilema of determinism) we realize that we are fundamentally no better or worse than anyone else. I think this kind of realization is critical to generating a sense of responsibility to use the power/wealth we have to better the world, and not merely to further our own personal/family/community/national interests. After all, what right do we have to what we have then anyone else?

    Just my thoughts- sorry to offend anyone the belief’s of anyone who’s not a philoosophical naturalist/determinst.

20. judy
    Posted from: 70.91.86.105
    
    April 27th, 2007 19:39
    20

    Congrats to everyone who is attending and who qualified! Laura and Elyse= rock it up for me and Anne.

21. roytman
    Posted from: 199.189.10.29
    
    May 3rd, 2007 14:54
    21

    gbn has two policy teams entered, which makes the coaching ratio half as absurd
    i would also like to assume everyone that the kids on that team with 7 coaches do as much or more work than any other high school debater, so their success is not simply a product of resources, it’s both. there were 15 to 20 other kids in the novice class our freshman year who are not as successful at policy debate as matt and steph who had the exact same resources.

22. roytman
    Posted from: 199.189.10.29
    
    May 3rd, 2007 14:55
    22

    assure*

23. smarcus
    Posted from: 140.180.5.65
    
    May 5th, 2007 15:52
    23

    From a purely educational, skill level, pre-round coaching in debate is ridiculous… picking up plan texts and strategizing with your paid coach is not educational at all.

    I’ve sat in classes in college with top debaters and thought that they’d make really insightful comments in discussions. False. They’re definitely hard workers, but it’s more the exception than the rule that the really smart, well versed kids do well in debate. It seems more likely that the well-coached kids do better.

    Just some thoughts,

    Steve

24. myost
    Posted from: 129.15.131.247
    
    May 8th, 2007 19:00
    24

    Some late thoughts– don’t interpret my comment a condemnation of GBN’s affluence. If they have the money to hire that many coaches, more power to them. I can’t claim I’d act any differently in their position.

    That said, those that have managed to qualify for the TOC without all the resources that a Greenhill or a Glenbrooks does deserves to be commended all the more. Woodlands, for example, especially stands out, but to recognize all of the people that have done well in spite of the disproportionate resources of others would go beyond the scope of this comment.

    A clarification, Drew and Neal from Jenks did not make it to where they have solely as a result of Blake or Conor’s help. Certainly, CJ helped Drew and Neal, but the two tournaments at which Jenks received bids (MBA and KCKCC) were the two tournaments where they did not get help from Conor and Blake. Additionally, all of their out-of-state tournaments (with the exception of Grapevine) were paid for on Drew and Neal’s own dime. Something to think about.

    Certainly, some barriers to participation cannot be overcome (travel, especially). But much can be done. One example which comes to mind is something which I’ve heard the GDS touranment does- allow poor schools host families/free housing.

25. jes jeang
    Posted from: 98.199.179.122
    
    October 28th, 2007 20:40
    25

    i heart jonathan slotter :)

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