Topic for Debate: AP Exams and College Admissions
In today’s New York Times op-ed, Rodney LaBrecque, the head of Wilbraham & Monson Academy, a college preparatory school suggests that in addition to ending early admission, colleges ought to stop putting so much weight on AP Exams. He writes:
Over time, however, the Advanced Placement system has metamorphosed into something far from its founders’ intentions. Today its de facto purpose is to provide privileged high school students with a credential for college admission. It has become another form of standardized, high-stakes testing that limits high school curriculum development and points up the enormous gap between the offerings of schools for the affluent and those for the less privileged.
What do you think? The full article is available here on VBD.
September 21, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
Unfair Advancement
By RODNEY LABRECQUE
Wilbraham, Mass.
IT is admirable that Harvard and Princeton plan to eliminate early admission. But colleges and universities should consider an even more important step, not only to assure equity in the admission process, but also to liberate high schools from the pressure to restrict their curriculums.
That step would be to return Advanced Placement courses to their original purpose, which was not college admission, but as the name says, advanced placement. In the 1950’s, a Ford Foundation study determined that students who had done very challenging work in high school should be able to skip equivalent college courses. Kenyon College followed up by developing courses and tests through which college-bound students could accelerate their studies by doing sophisticated work in high school.
Over time, however, the Advanced Placement system has metamorphosed into something far from its founders’ intentions. Today its de facto purpose is to provide privileged high school students with a credential for college admission. It has become another form of standardized, high-stakes testing that limits high school curriculum development and points up the enormous gap between the offerings of schools for the affluent and those for the less privileged.
True, Advanced Placement courses require students to demonstrate a certain amount of intellectual rigor and intensity. They had better, if they are to stand in for introductory college courses. But it is unlikely that high school teachers, given the freedom to develop courses to challenge their most able students, would settle for the Advanced Placement program. Its biology course, for example, mandates specific laboratory experiments, leaving no room for a teacher’s imagination or initiative.
Even if Advanced Placement were an effective high school education tool, there is little evidence to think it would be a useful yardstick for admissions. A 2004 study of the University of California system found that “the number of Advanced Placement and honors courses taken in high school bears little or no relationship to student’s later performance in college.” (Not surprisingly, the College Board, which administers the tests, rebutted this conclusion.)
What Advanced Placement testing does measure is the pedigree of a student’s high school. While 1.2 million students took Advanced Placement tests last year, 40 percent of high schools in the United States did not and could not afford to offer Advanced Placement courses. Students at such schools are at a disadvantage when these courses are used as a criterion for college admission.
The most competitive high schools, meanwhile, are expected to provide the kind of credentials college admission officers value, whether or not these match educators’ ideas about how best to reach their students. A handful of schools have abandoned formal Advanced Placement programs, but most, including mine, have chosen not to.
We are pondering issuing a call, in light of the Harvard and Princeton announcements, for an embargo on the reporting of Advanced Placement scores until students have matriculated. Reporting scores at that time would level the playing field ever so slightly for students who do not have access to the Advanced Placement program. And freed from the pressure to report scores for admission, skilled teachers would be able to develop intellectual acuity in ways tailored to the students they teach.
Students could still make use of Advanced Placement test scores, but strictly for advanced placement. And they just might have the opportunity, whether in high school or in college, to discover and develop a deeper interest in a discipline.
Rodney LaBrecque is the head of Wilbraham & Monson Academy, a college preparatory school.
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Posted from: 147.9.41.234
September 21st, 2006 11:58
Criticize criticize criticize… It might work as a negative debater, but it doesn’t work for real world policy options. Let me make sure I get this straight – in order to achieve “diversity*” (of viewpoints or social classes or races or gender or ideas – I don’t know which one people are talking about, and most of the time neither do they), a college admissions department ought to do the following:
1. Not put as much weight on the SAT, a test that fails to look at the real talents of students and provides too much of an advantage to the wealthy who can afford test preparation
2. Not put as much weight on early admissions, which for some reason still not made clear to me other then its “effect” harms “minorities*” (again, of what is questionable)
3. Not put as much weight on AP tests, which give too much strength to those who go to wealthier and more competitive schools
4. Not put as much weight on grades, as as grade inflation does occur, and it’s not extremely clear who it benefits but clearly it’s unfair
So are we down to a lottery system, or can we still look at the admissions essays? After all, those would seem to disadvantage those who either have poor writing skills or fail to have interesting lives which can include but are not limited to finding solutions for both world peace and logging in the Amazon during their summer vacations.
Posted from: 205.188.116.204
September 21st, 2006 12:16
why do people care so much about these less privileged people? geeze.
Posted from: 69.115.223.185
September 21st, 2006 13:24
umm i don’t understand how only wealthy people can do well on ap tests, other than that there’s a nominal 80 dollar fee for each test. but anyone can get a job at a fast food place or something to pay those fees. it’s extremely easy to study for ap tests on your own. athletes who have practice the day before a test don’t get their tests weighted differently simply because they had less of an opportunity to study. why are ap tests so different?
Posted from: 70.111.192.217
September 21st, 2006 13:58
Some people might have to work because they have to help their parents, and they don’t have the option of deciding that they can miss work to study.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 21st, 2006 14:12
I think I have a pretty good perspective on this one. I went to one of the worst high schools in my state (NC, which is no paragon of academic excellence). My family was eligible for free lunch/fee waivers, by a considerable margin, so I am one of the “socioeconomic diversity” admits. I am now in one of the Ivies and I was admitted to one other. I don’t say this to evoke pity or respect or sound superior or anything – it’s a source qualification of sorts, meant only to establish that my feelings on the subject derive from a situation close to those LaBrecque is discussing.
High school was insane. I took 8 APs exams, 5 of which I did independent-study, because AP labels at my high school did not translate to an actual college-level course. I had to put in quite a bit more work to get the same scores that people from better-funded or private high schools received. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t work; they had access to much better institutional resources than students from my school did. On highly formalized tests like AP exams, where certain styles work and certain strategies can make a great deal of difference, not having that kind of institutional support can be a real disadvantage. Reading a Barron’s Guide is significantly different than having a teacher also.
The argument is not that AP exams can’t or shouldn’t be used because poor people are at a disadvantage, I think. It’s much more nuanced than that. It’s that AP scores and SAT scores and other such quantitative indicators may not truly represent the student; it represents the product of a highly competitive industry designed to advantage those who can pay for prep courses and great teachers.
I am a libertarian. I don’t think that there is inherently a problem with anything I just said. I do think that, given Harvard’s and Princeton’s decisions to make their schools more socioeconomically inclusive, it makes sense *for them* to consider what these indicators are actually indicating. To Michael Boyle – it isn’t that the indicators are useless – they often are very useful – it’s that they need to be considered in a larger context, rather than affirming that scores can be stand-alone measures of relative intelligence. I think that it’s fair to assume that someone from, say, North Carolina School of Science and Math had a great calculus teacher, and thus the 5 on Calculus BC is well-warranted. It seems equally fair to assume that a student from my school with a 5 on BC that had to teach him/herself from scratch has a pretty unique talent and sense of dedication that allowed him/her to learn the material independently and succeed also. It isn’t that the schools ought to *discount* a factor – it’s that factors should be considered in context of a whole host of other factors.
To WTF – no one argues that only wealthy people can succeed on AP tests. I had straight 5s, except for the damn Physics C, which SUCKED. The problem is that students from better-funded or more prestigious schools have a BETTER CHANCE at receiving institutional assistance and better teaching, which means that students (generally poor, but not necessarily) from lesser schools have to do much more independent work to get the same grade. Thus, if schools are only accepting students based on what they know coming in, taking the student with a 5 and denying a student with a 4 is fine. But that seems like a bad decision; colleges are concerned with students that will do WELL, that have the drive to succeed, and have a desire to work independently. In that case, the 4 might be as valuable as the 5 if the student with the 4 taught herself and the student with the 5 had great resources. It’s all a question of what qualities and characteristics the schools want to prioritize in their admissions policies.
So – summary – schools are contextualizing numbers so that they can prioritize certain characteristics in their policies, rather than simply accepting people who know the most coming in. This would be wise for *any* desired characteristic, but in *this case* they are simply discussing socioeconomic accessibility.
By the way – if any kids in poorer high schools want advice on admissions/APs/Harvard, a place to stay during visits (hotels in Cambridge are HORRIBLY overpriced), or anything else, my email is jsheff AT fas DOT harvard DOT edu.
John Sheffield
Posted from: 70.254.166.12
September 21st, 2006 15:25
so what’s the alternative? you can’t seriously say that you can’t evaluate GPA and standardized tests as indicators of strong students. sure, other factors need to be taken into account. actually, they are. on any application form, you can always indicate your family’s financial income, and you can always apply for financial aid. most of the tough ivy leagues only deploy need-based aid anyway, so if you truly need the money, you have a great outlet to get it from. colleges also take into account your race and cultural background, as well as your parents’ education and whether or not they’ve previously attended college. also, colleges have extensive information on most of the high schools in the nation. they can always provide leeway for those students that do come from blighted areas. in fact, most tough ivies compare you not solely on your academic talents compared to other applicants, but your academic talents as compared to others applying from the same school or previous applicants from the same school. college administrators know a lot about the region of your school itself, and now whether or not your school is at an economically comparative advantage or disadvantage. they take into account when going over applications. you also have interviews…that’s like the most basic way to show your character. anyway, for more inside details and specific information on the admissions process, I recommend reading “The Gatekeepers” by Jacques Steinberg. REALLY REALLY REALLY good book. For more information on why the disadvantaged people matter, I recommend Rawls :)
Posted from: 24.167.28.89
September 21st, 2006 15:28
Wtf, its not the nominal 80 dollar fee that is the problem, nor the independent study one can do, rather it is the overall projection of education impoverished students are faced with. While they can probably afford a Princeton Review AP Chem book and may be able to afford the 80 dollars, their overall system of education is very poor. As a result, their study habits, work ethic, absorbition, challenging material, comprehension, and etc. all decrease or are comparatively poorer to a rich kid’s education. As a result, the poorer kids are at a disadvantage.
Posted from: 24.167.28.89
September 21st, 2006 15:31
While their are exceptions, the chances are rare. Poorer kids tend to do worse on standardized tests because their education is poorer in comparision to richer kids. It is not the nominal fee or independent study price that are the issues.
Posted from: 24.12.193.175
September 21st, 2006 15:33
As a student from a school which has an AP Calculus BC average rumored to be above 4.95, I must admit that I have some biases in my consideration of how much AP scores should be weighted for college admissions.
However, the only reason I took 7 AP tests my junior year was for college admissions purposes. I’m taking fewer AP tests my senior year than my senior year because of this; precious few schools that I am applying to are willing to give credit for my 5s.
The solution in the article makes no sense. Stop students from reporting their AP scores? It’s not like AP scores are featured as a regular part of an admissions portfolio–it’s only self-reported (if reported at all) as an academic honor on the Common App.
Personally, I’d argue that AP scores show more than, say, an SAT or ACT score. They demonstrate achievement in a given subject as opposed to vague numbers or even vague letters. AP scores are standardized; grades are not.
They aren’t even that inaccessible. I self-studied Statistics the night before the test and was able to get a 5. Socioeconomic pressures do not stop you from buying a Barron’s book and preparing. Most states will subsidize all of the AP testing fees for low-income students as well.
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 21st, 2006 16:44
i dont think they should put too much weight on the scores but the classes. ap classes are helpful in preparing students for close-to-college-level work but sometimes students disregard the class and just focus on the test. when that happens, you’re not really learning in the course, just learning how to take a test.
mr. castillo, i care a/b the disadvantaged. compare bronx science to another south bronx school like hostos hs or even dewitt clinton. its not that those students dont have the ability to succeed, its just that high schools aren’t giving them the same advantages as more priveleged schools i.e. suburban schools like scarsdale or exam schools like bronx science. as a result, colleges see that they cant ‘handle’ close-to-college-level work which perpetually places them at a disadvantage.
how do i know they can do just as well as any stuck up ap student? i met them. they’re street smart, compassionate, and brilliant. they should have the same advantage as the rest of us although they will be the ones that will succeed in life.
Posted from: 24.90.22.190
September 21st, 2006 16:47
chris wheres ur comebak?
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 21st, 2006 16:48
btw – i just finished reading jsheffield’s comment and i must say – you rock man
keepin’ it real
Posted from: 24.90.22.190
September 21st, 2006 16:48
she even said mr. castillo
Posted from: 71.160.56.34
September 21st, 2006 16:49
basically i\’m sure that castillo was being facetious.
that said i love this conversation. i hope it continues.
i\’m really torn. while i think that boyle\’s point was maybe absurd about it going back to completely random, i think it does bring up a good point that even i would have to come to grips with… that is what does the vacuum become filled with when the heirarchy is taken out using test scores, ap exams, grades, etc? does it become whoever can pledge the most or offers the most potential donation upon college graduation?
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 21st, 2006 17:08
everyone knows that colleges rely on legacy, old money, and potentially new money in order to receive the funding they need to keep their institutions at the top. the reason we have such a system based on hierarchy is b/c the american way of life teaches us that livin’ large should be our primary goal in life. “who gives about those n****s left behind as long as we be gettin’ the bling, G?”
the more we focus on education based on numbers, the less progress we’ll see from each generation. in addition, how a/b cheating? im curious about those airheads who spend time learning how to cheat the system. btw – i met those ppl too. you know – the ones who cheated to get into bronx science, ppl who cheat on tests, and of course the bunch that ‘outsmarts’ the proctor for standardized tests i.e. AP, SAT, IQ (lol).
Posted from: 207.200.116.74
September 21st, 2006 17:17
I completely agree with Jon Sheffield. I think what you all fail to recongnize that an education and the ability to attain one does not exist in a vaccuum. First, as John said, some school do not have the wherewithal to provide qualified teachers to teach the students who desire to take adavacned courses. But besides the point, many students dont have the ability to put a huge amount of time and effort into school. Some students have to support their families by taking on full time jobs outside of school, having to raise siblings so parents can work etc. These factors prevent a student from having the time and effort to dedicate their full attention to school should AP classes etc be availble. However, that doesnt mean that they are mentally incapable. Universities therefore need to take these issues and external factors into account. Therefore, by eliminating EA these elite skews are leveling the playing field which is inherantly skewed to begin with due to the caliber of the institution.
In terms of APs, they do present a disadvantage. And yes our society is rife with disadvantages and always will be, but here is the caveat. Disadvantages dont need to be exacerbated. Eliminating APs at least puts kids with external factors at a somewhat less severe disadvantage. This doesnt mean that the instutions that provide exceptional educations through AP classes are disadvantaged, rather they can still provide that education and call if something else. Names are mere facades. We ALL know that an AP at one school is NEVER similiar to an AP at another. As such, for students who really desire to push themself and feel restricted by the elimination of APs—Go to a community classes and take classes to your hearts content, and be GRATEFUL that you have the ability to do so. Many dont, and many never will. I respect Harvard and Princeton because they are trying to give a leg up to people who are truly deserving acamdemically, yet had a lot of external factors preventing that. They actually might be better for the university than those of us who have never had a struggle in their life. They know hard work, and they know struggle, but most importantly, they know not to complain.
Posted from: 71.160.56.34
September 21st, 2006 17:17
but what is the alternative to having “standardized” numbers? this sorta reminds me of the “letter of the law” v. “spirit of the law” debates. the first might be strict and based on some privileged hierarchy… but at least with that we can work to try to equalize as much as we can. the more “subjective” we make the process the more that individualized “biased” opinions can be brought into the mix… the more that institutional directives can potentially be brought down on admissions boards. just a thought.
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 21st, 2006 17:37
i know what you mean a/b tests being the fairest way to adjudicate a student’s ability to perform, and i dont contend that. i just dont agree with the way the system is run. id argue that the quality of schools should be based on the quality of students and not the stats of tests not even made by actual teachers. collegeboard for instance, holds a monopoly on providing ’standardized’ tests, but the people who draft the tests dont know jack**** about the subject areas theyre testing students on.
im working on the alternative – its one of my goals in life. i’d rather have schools compete for the students than the other way around. the sole purpose of tests should be how effective the teacher was in getting her point across – students shouldn’t have external pressures exerted on them such as standardized tests. moreover, standtests dictate how teachers should teach – further hindering their ability to ‘make learning fun’.
there’s an anarchist i know on policy – the institution of education has taught him that those who study hard are dorks and teachers are slavedrivers that make him conform to a system of thought. im a dork, but sometimes those who love to teach are more the victims than the ones they are forced to enslave.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 21st, 2006 18:16
This solution is probably hellaciously impractical for state schools and places with limited admissions resources, but here goes. Contextualize. If a student has no (or low) AP scores, ask why – were the classes horrible, did the student have to teach herself, were there limited institutional resources?
It’s cool that Jon posted this today; yesterday, I had a meeting with the admissions folks at Harvard – I am volunteering as a recruiter in low-income schools – and they told me exactly what I posted above, essentially. They will contextualize any numbers they have. AP scores are big indicators, of course, because they show the kind of knowledge students have coming in. However, they say that they don’t have any kind of definite calculus to lump that in with other indicators; there are loose guidelines that can always be bent. They aren’t necessarily looking for the brightest students coming in – Harvard profs can teach them something when they get here – they want students that *want* to learn and rewrite papers and go to office hours and spam the hell out of TF(TA)’s inboxes. That can’t be shown in a score alone. There is an important balance between quantitative and qualitative/circumstantial data that can’t be represented in numbers alone; these admissions factors are far from black and white determinants of a person’s chances. Some people with 1600 SATs were denied; my roommate had a 1260. I went to a crappy high school; Exeter had a substantial percentage turned down. One kid I know never took a single AP exam, and didn’t do the ACT, because his school didn’t have fee waivers. They can look at these things and make exceptions and nonquantitative decisions.
As for standards of comparison – I don’t know if those are so critical, actually, especially in private schools. You can’t be somehow wronged if a Harvard or Colby or Swarthmore doesn’t let you in; they design their incoming classes according to their own preferences. I find it difficult to critcize any private school because it didn’t admit someone who “deserved” to get in…
At state schools that don’t have resources to make such highly personal judgments, AP scores should be used, but computers should never make admissions decisions; schools can still incorporate into their policies some basic sensitivities to special circumstances. See what I said above about contextualization. And, to answer the obvious objection about state schools having to make decisions based on merit, see the Bakke case…
I think it’s already standard admissions policy (here and in a few of the big-name schools, Ivy League and otherwise) to take these things into account, and I know that the *trend* has been towards this method for years.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 21st, 2006 18:22
So that post was wholly non-responsive to what Bietz said.
I don’t think that institutional directives to admissions officers are necessarily *bad* – what’s so wrong with a *private* school (I grant that discarding standards at public colleges is more difficult, but see Bakke anyways) deciding that it wants to take a higher percentage of X student in a class? This isn’t a rhetorical question – I am actually interested to hear people’s perspectives on the harms of such a convention.
To be somewhat more general, why is fairness an issue in private colleges?
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 21st, 2006 18:33
that made my head hurt …
Posted from: 69.118.143.5
September 21st, 2006 19:00
john sheffield,
im pretty sure that what u actually ended up doing in those two posts was justify the status quo from a “good perspective”
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 21st, 2006 19:10
No, I said that Harvard is making strides in this direction through X method. I didn’t mean to justify the status quo – I think that *more* progress needs to be made – but I think what Harvard is doing (and more schools may do this, I just use this example because it’s familiar) is a positive example with replicable means. I didn’t mean to imply – and I apologize if it was unclear – that we, or any school, should stop.
Posted from: 63.231.230.27
September 21st, 2006 19:38
oh how the poor and disadvantaged suffer…always staring and observing them as if they were a zoo exhibit (that’s why they have those large windows in buses for those of you who have seen Crash):P….good discussion though!
Idriss
Posted from: 69.118.140.200
September 21st, 2006 19:51
I had to do a lot of research about this topic, and it turns out that the administrators at my school (Scarsdale) wrote letters to the 100 most applied to colleges. They almost unanimously all said that dropping the AP class will have no effect on the admissions process (and actually supported it). They are sending out more letters to schools, but the answers seem to be the same. The Fieldston Academy also dropped all of their AP classes, but have no difference in acceptance rates. We are scheduled to completely drop the AP classes by 2008-09. They will be replaced by AT classes(I don’t remember what that stands for). It’s basically the same curriculum, but it doesn’t have the AP title. Students can still take the AP exam if they want.
Posted from: 69.172.189.97
September 21st, 2006 20:15
AP classes are good. period. for kids that are not quite challenged in regular or honors classes, AP clases serve as a healthy environment where those kids can accel. however, the competition in AP clases is nothing less than CUTTHROAT and can lead to an exhorbitant amount of pressure. as i am a student that will graduate haven taking 17 (seventeen) AP classes and 5 AP level college clases, amounting to a total of 22 AP level credits, the AP program has both done wonders for my learning, but has also largely contributed to my crazyness. the one main thing i have come to realize as i am about to end my high school experience, is that I WILL NOT LET THE STANDARDIZED TEST DEFINE ME. I REFUSE TO LET THE SAT, AP EXAMS, and ALL TESTS IN SCHOOL DICTATE WHO I AM AS A PERSON and if anything, that is what the AP program has taught me- that teachers may inherently want you to learn, but in reality they are SOLELY TEACHING FOR YOU TO PASS A TEST AND TO MEET A RUBRIC AND TO MEET THE COLLEGEBOARD GUIDELINES.
- to abolish the program or not? i would have to go with the latter, because obviously they need some way to determine who goes to what school, although i wish college admissions were not dependent upon such testing mechanisms, what REAL alternatives do they have to separate the slackers from the non-slackers and the bad testakers from the perfect scores? i dont know.
Posted from: 24.199.52.178
September 21st, 2006 21:31
YEAH SHEFFIELD ROCKS
(no sarcasm intended)
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 21st, 2006 22:04
Prashant, how is UCLA? I am potentially considering grad school there, even though I probably still have some time…
Posted from: 128.36.41.218
September 21st, 2006 23:23
I think a lot of people totally missed the nuance argued in the essay….not that we ban AP scores altogether (heck given the TRANSCRIPT, colleges would still know if a student is taking the test), it’s just that the score of the AP exam is not disclosed. It’s not like it is being argued that AP classes themselves will be banned from the transcripts, which is what a lot of the more critical posts are assuming.
I agree with Castillo’s initial sarcastic remark and Sheffield’s comments. It’s nice to argue in a idealistic world that quantiative scores are the best/only way to evaluate people, but the reality is that schools have the self interest to want “diversity” (as much as it may not be liked) because they want to find a particular class dynamic. Classes with only 4.0s and 1600s won’t guarantee future Nobel prize winners, Rhodes scholars, presidents of the US (cough Bush, cough),
or people with a wide range of talents to fulfill a college’s desire to have people with talents across the board.
Hence, that’s why colleges contextualize, and this article is merely arguing that we should go another step, albeit a smaller one. Simply put, if quantitative measures were an efficacious way to get private schools the kinds of students they wanted, then why would Berkeley threaten to make the SAT I optional if its such an AMAZING evaluative tool for college merit? Why do we even have resumes or lists of college achievement of quantiative merit alone is a necessary standard of excellence (as some here have yelled for in opposition to “diversity.”)
In the real world, things aren’t as simple as just plugging in an equation to find out what students you should have that “deserve” to be there. Like it or not, that’s not how most jobs are given, that’s not how grad school is determined (even law school is included here), and if that’s the kind of la la hypothetical world you want, you’re in for a rude awakening.
I think what shoudl be asked is WHY these measures are being taken to be more racially/gendered or socioeconomicaly inclusive. To just yell as Mike did that it’s just for “diversity” is a bit of a strawman–it doesn’t present self interested reasons why colleges think that’s a good idea not only for the health and academic life of the university, but also it’s self interest.
Posted from: 24.126.115.180
September 22nd, 2006 00:00
i would just like to say that my posts are merely to contribute to discussion, and not necessarily my view on the issue.
Posted from: 66.92.163.42
September 22nd, 2006 07:35
Alright, this isn’t a specific response, but more of a general question to throw out there.
First, like Bietz, I mainly throw out arguments that have some semblance of my support out there but at the same time try to foster discussion.
Anybody taking an undergraduate class that involves the history of Supreme Court rulings or recent Supreme Court rulings that has had the textbook recently updated may have read a book by Professor Greg Ivers. He is actually considered one of the leading professors on issues of civil liberties and constitutional law, in terms of writing textbooks at least, and I had the interesting experience of taking a class with him over the summer. His stance against the decisions in both Michigan cases and Bakke case was actually interesting, especially because he also serves on the American University admissions committee.
So here’s the gist of what he says:
1. We want ‘diversity’ but we don’t know what it is – in terms of diversity of ideas and life experiences, it’s something ridiculously difficult to measure and not exceptionally clear
2. We look at statistics of social groups when we claim there’s a claim of inequality, but this essentializes people’s viewpoints based on one specific trait or characteristic
3. Every case which has discussed “diversity” of applicants or the compelling interest of colleges to create certain demographics of incoming classes has no more validitiy than creating single-race or single-gender incoming classes, because nobody admits what they’re actually looking for
4. If Bakke or Michigan cases were argued honestly, they’d say they wanted more people with different skin colors, because that’s all you’re ensuring through the contested standards
Now this guy is fairly liberal overall, and doesn’t argue that diversity is bad, just that we don’t know what it is and we’re dishonest with ourselves about what it is we’re doing.
And yes, I’ll keep voting for straight ref/T/Kritik negs… but if I see debate competitors start writing letters to the editor, that’s the end of it ;)
Specifically speaking, I’ll throw out a couple responses:
1. (Generic) Seriously, if you don’t use your name in a post, I’m not going to read it – I’m putting my name out there to support some rather contraversial viewpoints, and they can’t possibly be any worse than yours, and if you think I have a personal agenda against you for disagreeing with me… my enemies list would be almost as long as the census
2. Castillo – I detect a note of sarcasm in your post. My only question is what is your solution, and, once you’ve presented that, I can argue about the merits of it. As it is, the SAT was created to start a more level playing field for college admissions; I’m not entirely convinced that it no longer serves that purpose, but many people argue that it doesn’t serve that purpose. At the same time, it seems like every possible measure “harms” somebody; how do we work this out?
3. Sheffield – I respect you, but, like always, disagree with you. I was asked the same question by Professor Ivers about why did I deserve to be at American on a full merit scholarship, and my answer was I provide a unique sense of style with my UFC t-shirts and my continuing banter on the latest bad decisions in the bouts showcasing the swwet science of boxing. After saying that, I basically made fun of him for being from Georgia, and he moved on to a target that actually felt they had to justify being there.
Colleges have a legitimate interest in accepting students who are likely to contribute in some unique manner and simultaneously also stand a good chance of graduating. Therefore, the admissions process does ask what will you do in the next four years; but, as any investment consultant will tell you, past returns don’t guarantee future performance. Whenever any criteria are thrown out there, they are somewhat arbitrary; life is unfair, get over it. The question is to what degree are they arbitrary, and what interest do they serve. Most of the time, people refuse to answer these questions honestly, and delude themselves into some overly grand goals.
Berryhill: I didn’t yell; I ranted and raved, maybe bitched, but mainly threw my opinion to the contrary out there. I actually don’t disagree with you as much as you think.
All: Yes, I realize the argument is about scores, not classes. Thatsaid, this isn’t the first article posted here about changing the college admissions standards (EA/ED article a week or two ago), and I’m just trying to get someone to tell me why changing it is going to create a “better” outcome, and what the goal is (how will we know when we’ve reached a status “better” than the status quo).
Posted from: 67.171.76.6
September 22nd, 2006 07:56
The politically untenable question that no one in America has the answer to: how can the system for funding education be reformed
If we really want to maintain “equality of opportunity” and let every one “pull themselves up by their boot straps”, then we have to dump the property-tax based system of funding schools. Schools in the inner city will continue being awful because their tax base is small. Schools in the suburbs will continue being good because their tax base is huge. Poor people will become poorer, while the rich will become richer. (I’ll leave the race dynamics aside for the moment.)
The ideal would be to make education funding primarily reflect the number of students in each school. This is perhaps the most politically untenable idea one could imagine, but I’m not sure what solution could work within the framework of American federalism.
Posted from: 75.195.61.7
September 22nd, 2006 08:15
Jing, I think Chris was being sarcastic.
My thoughts will come this weekend — but thank you, Bietz, for posting this really interesting essay!
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 22nd, 2006 09:26
Right on, Greg.
Boyle – what did that response even mean? I don’t mean to sound snotty, but I have no idea what you said.
Posted from: 66.92.163.42
September 22nd, 2006 12:49
No problem; I’ll give out the tagline (from the second paragraph):
Colleges have an interest, when determining who they accept, in trying to figure out how those students will do in college, specifically in terms of what they can “bring” in terms of scholarship and what they can “accomplish” in terms of graduation rates.
Nothing can predict the future perfectly – that said, standardized tests work as measurements that have at least some corellation to future performance. While a magic 8 ball could just as easily be used, there is less of a correlation between what it says and a students performance than a student’s score on AP tests.
When you move beyond these two basic indexes to “what does somebody contribute” or “why do they deserve to be in college as opposed to the people who were rejected”, you literally have no ground from which to argue.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 22nd, 2006 13:29
Source on the second claim? SAT scores are better correlated to price of parents’ cars than future performance; what indicates that AP scores are not affected by similar forces? That’s a big assertion. Beyond that, remember what I said about *what the numbers actually indicate* (Berryhill said something similar also). Students with the same potential and different circumstances can have wildly different scores. The argument, then, is again very nuanced: because AP scores represent “input knowledge” rather than “academic potential”; and schools have ample indicators for “input knowledge” beyond AP scores; it *makes sense* for colleges to disregard or diminish the relative weight of AP scores vis-a-vis other factors because these exams *specifically* disadvantage the disadvantaged when they are considered without context. I can understand how that might deprive us of some absolute comparative ability, but I am willing to sacrifice that ability (which isn’t huge anyway) to give some preference to students that have had to make their own way, so to speak. Again, most colleges look for a balance of “input knowledge” and “academic potential,” and AP scores, which sound (and are) pretty prestigious and weighty, often reflect only the former. For colleges that want to increase the relative proportion of academic potential measures in their decision calculus, it makes sense to exclude AP scores, or at least contextualize and minimize the quantitative element of the scores.
I am not sure if I am arguing the same thing that the article did, but I think my argument makes sense on its own merits. If someone would like me to rearticulate it more clearly, and note where I break with the author of the article, I will do so.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 22nd, 2006 13:35
There isn’t a consistent moral principle behind my preference for self-made students, but given that there is a consensus that socio-economic diversity is an important consideration in college admissions calculi (for a whole host of reasons) I think it’s fair to assume that colleges would agree with me there. I think that it’s also fair to assume that, while this isn’t causally true, wealthier students are generally less independently focused and driven than self-made students. This is just from my observation – I don’t have a source, and my sample size is pretty limited – but it seems intuitive to me. Students from poor backgrounds *have* to be self-motivated to get to the big-name schools, whereas wealthier schools tend to provide advantages to students that make them need self-motivation less. This isn’t a radical statement, and I am not calling rich people stupid or lazy – I think it’s a justifiable assumption that the characteristic of self-motivation is *inherent* to competitive students from poor schools, which is not always the case in wealthier schools.
Posted from: 69.118.143.5
September 22nd, 2006 15:23
i take that offensively. i wont be admitted to college because ill improve a school’s socioeconomic diversity. but sophomore year, i took the initiative to develop my own curriculum on economic management in the developing world, and the course hasnt ended yet. my school, scarsdale, is filled with kids conducting independent research on science and math too. in fact, considering the number of student run programs (literary magazine, shakespeare productions, teach-in on energy), youd have a hard time finding a more self-motivated group. john, if u want to effect change, youll need to be taken seriously by the establishment. class generalizations wont help. why is saying that poor students are more motivated than rich students any less reprehensible than saying the poor lack motivation?
Posted from: 75.11.59.42
September 22nd, 2006 17:20
i loved taking ap exams, i found that those who studied a ton before the tests scored significantly lower than those who spent a moderate amount of time studying. i studied the night before for about 45 minutes for art history, and that’s about it. i took art history, euro history, and english lit this last year and scored 2 4s [euro hist and art hist] and a 5 on eng lit. maybe my results are atypical, but this brings me to the issue of the ap rubric and structure. once again, maybe my experience is atypical, but 2 of my 5 ap teachers from my sr. year were active members of the collegeboard group that built the rubric for their corresponding class, and they still loosely followed it. i found that ap was refreshing insofar as the course material was more challenging, but was actually less rigid than a normal academic course which are limited to the standards of whatever state one lives in. for example, many academic classes in texas are very limited to taching what is necessary to get kids to pass the state TAKS test. that’s one of the reasons i like the ap exams, is that portions of the test such as the essays really leave a lot open to personal perception of whatever topic one is presented with. in regard to the economic problems regarding this issue, many schools offer discounts to students who can’t afford the test cost in full, i know lots of kids i graduated with who took 5 tests for the cost of one. additionally, the costs of the tests are not universal. i saw that someone above said the test was 80, wheras at mayde creek the standard rate was 52. additionally, there were lots of kids in my classes, myself inclusively, that weren’t as well off as others and managed to do well, if not better, than the more affluent students. moreover, my you don’t even have to be in an ap course to take the exam, i took academic english my jr year for an easy A and still took the ap exam and got a 5.
Posted from: 71.135.54.218
September 22nd, 2006 18:30
i think one important thing to notice is that a school schedule only accomodates a certain number of classes, and for those who want to take more classes than are offered at their school they have to self-study. the only way to prove their knowledge of the subject and be recognized for it is through exams such as ap exams.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 22nd, 2006 18:48
Charlie, I never said that rich people are unmotivated. I said that students who rise to the top tier without institutional support are sort of definitionally motivated, while students who have had institutional support are not *inherently* self driven. It seems like you are, so my statement doesn’t apply to you. I said that it wasn’t inherent, not that it wasn’t possible.
By the way – what do you mean by “If I want the establishment to take me seriously?” My statements are less radical BY FAR than a vast segment of thinkers and scholars on topics like this.
*COMPLETELY* disconnected from what Charlie said, I think it’s funny that so many of the wealthy and powerful (not all) are whining about being disadvantaged (not on this forum, but in general). The wealthy elite has perpetuated itself for centuries by means that certainly did not respect any notion of equality of opportunity. Sucks to be on the other side, eh?
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 22nd, 2006 19:03
There, that’s my full name.
Has anyone ever heard of the Campaign for Fiscal Equity? It’s a reform movement that started in NYC for the issue on schools according to property taxes. The campaign fought for equal distribution in monetary value for all NYC high schools. For example, the South Bronx is notorious for being one of the poorest areas in the nation, and the school system there reflects that. Yet, it is a center for ghetto culture and students are just as brilliant. I’m not asking private institutions to create more socioeconomic diversity, I’d rather there be reform in how secondary schools are run i.e. fairer distribution of resources.
I’m not sure how you could evaluate student motivation since different people have different conceptions of success. What I know is NOT true is that a Hostos kid can do just as well as say a kid from Scarsdale in an independent research competition like Intel. The success of HS are usually measured by the amount of merit that one school receives. For instance, Bronx Science has 6 noble prize winners and a bunch that always seems to make it to semifinals in Intel. What people fail to realize is that the 60s brought in a wave of funding to Math and Science schools in order for the US to beat the Russians in the next generation (Cold War politics and education). In addition, b/c Bronx Science has been open since the 30’s, we have a huge alumni foundation that donates money – giving us the oppurtunity to travel in debate tournaments and order sets of computers at a time to keep up our standards for Intel. I’m pretty sure this happens at Scarsdale too (given that there are pics of various famous alumni on the walls). The question now becomes, what happens to Hostos, the HS that opened not five years ago and literally has to be molded into a community college in order for them to have some resources? You really can’t argue that an independent researcher from a South Bronx HS has the same advantage.
You cant dispute facts: http://www.sciserv.org/sts/65sts/06semis.asp
^scroll to a state and you can estimate how much funding a school receives (taking into the zoning i.e. property taxes and other external factors)
Posted from: 205.188.116.204
September 22nd, 2006 20:43
Just some thoughts
1) It doesn’t have to be an AP class to be an advanced class. Therefore there is nothing terribly unique about the AP program. In fact, as an AP teacher, I would say that some of the AP curricula are quite restrictive and insanely focused on minutia (biology, chem, US, Euro, Art History to name a few) and detract from good pedogogy and solid learning. Many schools use the AP label but aren’t really teaching their courses as college level classes.
2. Let’s be honest folks, the vast majority of selective schools no longer give credit for AP tests taken. Therefore a lot of the meaning of the program is diluted significantly as you can’t use it to get ahead in college. Thankfully for me, I went to a SUNY and used my AP scores to graduate early to save money but that is not as much of an option for as many students today (although still an option for some).
3. More honesty…refering up to comment 9. These days AP’s are more used by admissions officers than for granting of credit. Admissions officers want to see that kids are ‘taking the most rigorous course available to them.’ Often times this translates into ‘take as many APs as you can.’ This boils my blood something fierce. First of all, they DO NOT CARE HOW YOU DO ON THE EXAMS because, for the most part, those scores never reach the college until after admissions are done. They just want to know you are taking the most rigorous course load available…here’s what I disagree about.
If the course is ACTUALLY an AP course, being taught at the college level, these universities are asking students to take 5 or 6 college level classes, AT THE SAME TIME. In college, the most you take is maybe 4 classes at a time. So the colleges are asking the kids to do MORE work in their last year of HS than they will do in college. The amount of stress this places on kids is absurd. Seniors in our HS get slammed with hours and hours and hours of HW and projects and papers and tests because of it. I do not think this is healthy personally. it doesn’t enable true learning or delving into your passions. It enables sleep deprived students juggling too many balls. This is a flaw in the system and colleges are driving it with these reprehensible admissions decisions.
We had a panel of admissions officers come speak to a faculty meeting. I asked the panel about this issue. They repeated the pat line about ‘rigorous courseload.’ I followed up with “do you understand the impact of such a course load on most students? do you condone this culture?” Uncomfortable silence ensues. Then they fess up that students have to work to impress them, to set themselves apart. I respond “even to the physical and mental detriment to the child which your de facto policies cause?” Uncomfortable silence ensues. Ah fun.
Listen kids, the college admissions people do not care about your passions unfortunately. The AP culture and the counting of the number of AP classes is what matters to them. Unfortunately, many people have bought in. In doing so, i think a lot of people have ruined a large part of their HS career.
Taking 9 AP tests in a year? ugh. If the test can be mastered by 4 hours of study the night before, i think we are well rid of it. It’s not truly reflective of college level work. in fact, no one test could be.
That’s why I think ditching APs is a great thing. There is no one high stakes assessment. In a responsible enviroment there is just continual assessment, both cognitive and summative, formal and informal that should be going on by a teacher with mastery in the subject area.
That brings us to the trained teacher thing. The unfortunate truth is that many high schools do not have teachers with subject level mastery. They do not have teachers who are qualified to teach at the college level. These students most definitely are at a disadvantage. Does this mean we ditch the AP program because some people have unequal access to good teaching? I’m not sure about that argument.
What I do know is that the AP program has fueled a hysteria in the appearance of achievement. It’s a label or an accolade that many seek as a resume builder and not as a commitment to deeply explore a topic they find interesting. I appreciate the fact that many students, especially in this community, want to be challenged and don’t feel challenged by ‘regular level’ courses but I think it is absurd to say that any HS kid should have mastery of 10+ college level courses before college (which is tacitly the claim the AP program wld make for a kid who passes 10 AP tests).
In the past 5 years, the College Board has systematically watered down their curricula, they have focused the exams more on facts than analysis, and have made the tests easier to achieve a greater market penetration. To the College Board, students are potential customers, not learners. That is what I find deeply upsetting. Even more upsetting is that we are all buying in that the AP label means anything. It is the course taught by a qualified professional in a rigorous and informative way that actually means something.
Just a few thoughts
PS John, the Physics Mechanics C…bad test, KICK ASS course. Why bad? They have used the same 12 questions on a rotating cycle for the last 20 years. All they have done is obscured the writing to make the questions harder and have lengthened the problems rather than deepened them. Gotta love a test where a 49 out of 90 is a 5….yup, 55% = mastery to the college board.
Posted from: 71.250.163.127
September 23rd, 2006 05:54
mr. vaughan is so right.
that’s why im taking 4 art classes and 2 ap’s.
art nerdz 4 lYf3
Posted from: 69.170.231.118
September 23rd, 2006 10:27
My high school offers about 27 AP classes. In AP classes that I have taken, the vast majority of the students come from white middle and upper class families. The administration, from what I have seen, attempts to draw that boundary by (usually) allowing only those students more likely to pass the exam take the course.
This makes me mad, because it “justifies” (to the school) teaching a course geared towards the exam and not “higher level learning” (as quoted by admissions officers and high school guidance counselors alike). I have seen students in AP classes at my school consider themselves above the “stupid” ones that take honors or on-level classes, valuing themselves as superior to those around them. These are, however, the students skipping on the workload in the AP course and failing the exams, but admissions officers take it that they’ve been “challenged” and received an A in the course.
I don’t think AP classes should be taken out completely, because they do (in this instance) provide a better workload/ethic for students desiring it. However, I think a re-evaluation is in need, both by the high school and college officers, on the AMOUNT of these AP courses. (Our high school valedictorian has 19 AP classes for her four years of high school.)
Finally, the scores are not very reflective on a college test or exam, based in part on the curve and types of prepared students nationwide.
Posted from: 66.108.93.62
September 23rd, 2006 11:44
Joe Vaughan speaks the truth. I don’t know that I have much to contribute anymore, because I agree 100% with what he said, and frankly, he said it a lot more eloquently and more concisely than I could have. Thank you for that post.
Posted from: 140.247.185.104
September 23rd, 2006 16:53
Ha, I forgot Mr. Vaughan was a physics teacher… I hated the exam because my class was a review of algebra… we spent two weeks building trebuchets (I set a record – 27 feet high, 3/4 ton, shot a brick half a mile!) but little or no time doing, say, two-dimensional motion. It was pretty sad. I am bitter because it wrecked my AP streak.
Other than that, I agree with Mr Vaughan almost entirely.
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 24th, 2006 07:43
Mr Vaughan is so cool – esp in providing kids who dont get jstor with jstor.
=)
Posted from: 64.136.27.227
September 24th, 2006 07:52
That reminds me – Mr. Vaughan, I think there’s a teacher named Mr. Omoloju that transferred last year from Bronx Science and moved to Scarsdale. Is he teaching there now?
Posted from: 205.188.116.204
September 24th, 2006 09:49
Mr. Omoloju is indeed with us at Scarsdale and we are excited to have him with us. From everything I can tell so far, he’s a smart guy and a solid teacher. Sorry for stealing him.
Posted from: 121.245.18.40
December 4th, 2008 04:10
I don’t know that I have much to contribute anymore, because I agree 100% with what he said, and frankly, he said it a lot more eloquently and more concisely than I could have. Thank you for that post.
Posted from: 117.198.162.247
December 24th, 2008 13:56
umm i don’t understand how only wealthy people can do well on ap tests, other than that there’s a nominal 80 dollar fee for each test. but anyone can get a job at a fast food place or something to pay those fees. it’s extremely easy to study for ap tests on your own. athletes who have practice the day before a test don’t get their tests weighted differently simply because they had less of an opportunity to study. why are ap tests so different?