Tubs and Tubs of Talent

Kevin Troy won Nationals in Domestic Extemp. As a sophomore.

He finished his junior year with a big win at the Extemp TOC (where he placed third as a sophomore), having also won Berkeley, competed at the MBA Round Robin, and appeared in the final round of the Glenbrooks. In this, his final year as a high school competitor, Kevin has thus far won the MBA Round Robin and the Glenbrooks.

And extemp is not even his first love! An accomplished policy debater, Kevin recently ended his team debate career with an appearance in the final round of the Minnesota State Tournament. If that weren’t enough, he also qualified to Nationals in LD. (He also plays the guitar!)

This multitalented young forensician joins us today for an exclusive VBD interview.

Jon Cruz: Champion of the MBA Round Robin in extemp. Runner-up at your state tournament in policy. National qualifier in Lincoln-Douglas Debate. Pretty awesome stuff, Kevin. I guess the logical place to start is: what is your favorite event?

Kevin Troy: While it may surprise some people, policy is definitely my favorite. No other event can match the intensity, the necessity for rapid thought, the amount of work - I love it. Even though I am significantly better at extemp, debate (specifically policy) will always be my “first love”, if you will. LD was a one time thing. I had a lot of fun, and I think it’s a great event, but policy’s my favorite.

JC: Well, let’s back track. With which event did you start?

KT: Policy debate. In Minnesota we have a debate season from fall to winter and then a speech season So debate came first. And I did policy all four years except for one foray into LD at NFL quals this year. Additionally, even though I did speech my freshman year, I didn’t do extemp. I did creative expression, a Minnesota category in which you basically write your own interp piece.

Sophomore year was my first in extemp speaking.

JC: Well, as further background, I guess, what attracted you to extemp? And how did you get into policy?

And, I must ask - what did you do for your creative expression piece?

KT: [laughs] My creative piece wound up being a skewering of people who thought they were infallible - Jesse Ventura, etc. - I think it was called “Delusions of Slander.” It was not very good

JC: [laughs] How did you do with it?

KT: I did fine for a freshman. I broke to either finals or honor finals with reasonable consistency.

JC: Congratulations!

KT: Hardly.

JC: [chuckles]

KT: That was a year for me to get my feet wet in the speech world. Get away from the cerebral nature of debate.

JC: [laughs]

KT: Realize that interp was not my calling.

JC: [laughs]

JC: What, then, attracted you to extemp? And how did you get into LD?

KT: Well, when I was a freshman I was aware of extemp, and it seemed like a logical place for me to be. I loved politics and current events, and the skills needed matched up with debate. So I expressed my interest in it to the coaches. What sealed my fate, though, was when I tried out for our speech traveling team, the group that goes to circuit tournaments. I made the team, and they needed me in extemp. So ultimately, it was the coaches’ decision.

My participation in LD was a function of my not wanting to qualify for Nationals in policy, because that would preclude my going in extemp. But I still wanted to debate at nat quals, and LD seemed like a good challenge. I didn’t go into it thinking of qualifying. I just hoped I could help out my team my giving a few other people some losses.

NFL has a rule that if you qualify in a partner event you have to go. I really wanted to try International Extemp again at nationals, and so had I qualified in policy - not a sure thing by any means, but a definite possibility - I would have been unable to go in extemp.

JC: Do you find it difficult to switch between policy and extemp? The preferred speaking styles are pretty different, obviously.

KT: Initially I had to slow down. A lot. I still have issues with going too fast occasionally, but that is a product of having too much to say in seven minutes, not a result of my background in policy. The difficulty arises when I have an extemp tournament in the middle of the debate season. For instance, this year both Glenbrooks and MBA were right in the middle of the debate season. So I could only afford to spend a little bit of time getting the extemp tubs ready.

JC: Tubs? How many do you bring?

KT: For extemp I think we have seven tubs right now. I’m embarrassed to say that.

JC: [laughs]

KT: I feel like it’s way too many, but at the same time I always think that there’s more to be done.

JC: Do you find that the sheer amount of evidence you bring to the prep room intimidates opponents?

KT: [laughs] I don’t know, you’d have to ask them. I think the real intimidation stems from my imposing stature.

JC: [laughs] Do tell.

KT: Well, when you’re all of 5′5″, people have a tendency to be frightened. [laughs] Not really. Intimidation doesn’t figure into my game plan.

JC: What was your first extemp tournament? How did that go?

KT: My first extemp tournament was the Pine Crest tournament in Florida my sophomore year. My first speech ever was about 4 minutes and 26 seconds long. Not a great beginning. But I improved as the tournament went on, and actually wound up breaking to quarterfinals.

JC: Congratulations! The Crestian is really competitive.

KT: Yeah, thank you. I was very happy, considering that it was my first extemp tournamnet.

JC: Did you find it hard to balance the time commitment to both extemp, and to policy? Both require a significant amount of research.

KT: Yes. During the period of time when they overlap I generally go crazy. Fortunately, because of the separated seasons in Minnesota, policy is over once extemp really starts heating up.

JC: Nonetheless, you do a lot of national circuit tournaments during that policy time, right?

KT: Yeah, we go to a fair number of circuit tournaments. We’ve been to Wake, Des Moines Valley, Iowa Caucus, Blake, and others. Never all in the same year, but I’ve done my share of traveling for policy. I was never nearly as good at policy though.

JC: Being runner-up at your state tournament is pretty impressive, so I wouldn’t diminish that.

KT: Certainly not. I wasn’t bad at policy debate. And I loved it. Plus, finishing second at State was a great way to end my policy career. I was very pleased with that.

JC: Switching events for a moment, let’s go back to extemp. You’re one of the most respected extempers in the event right now. I know of extempers from the area who have never ever seen you compete, but know your competitive history; I know of debaters who have relatively little exposure to the event but have seen you compete and have described you as incredible. That’s pretty awesome, and it sounds like you had success right from the start. What, besides the short speech, did you find to be your biggest obstacles at first?

KT: I think my biggest obstacle at first was the same as my biggest obstacle currently. I have always had to resist the temptation to say more in a speech than the seven minutes allows. What I have had to learn is that, just like debate, where the greatest skill of a 2AR is the ability to pick and choose arguments, extemp requires a similar kind of argument selection. Since I started doing extemp, I’ve always been inclined to throw in that one extra statistic, or name, or source. So, reigning in that inclination has been essential.

The problem if I don’t is two-fold. First, I speak too quickly. I think there’s a place for speed in extemp, but I think it is over-used as a tool. Second is my time allocation gets messed up. If I spend too much time on one of my early points, then a later point will get short-changed.

JC: So even now, with your success this season, that’s a comment you still get from judges?

KT: Yes and no. Often my perception of how I do will be far more critical than the judge’s. But self-critique is crucial to my continued improvement. I can never be satisfied with how I am doing in that I always know there is room for improvement. Even if I am acheiving all of my competitive goals, my speaking can always improve, and my coach, Chris McDonald, and I continually work on that.

That’s not to say that judges aren’t critical. Far from it. I still learn a lot from judge critique sheets, especially at tournaments like the MBA Round Robin.

JC: What kinds of comments did you get at the MBA Round Robin?

KT: Well, there were a lot of round-specific comments regarding content of the speech. The primary criticism was that my time allocation was slightly skewed. We’ve really worked hard to rectify that, however, and in large part have been successful.

JC: Even if it’s an issue with which you are still dealing, do you have any advice for younger extempers who are having a similar problem?

KT: There are two times during prep when the problem can be dealt with. The first is in writing the speech. You have to make sure your areas of analysis are balanced. If you’re like me though, it can be balanced on paper and then become very top-heavy. This is a result of a tendency to either over-explain or add in new bits of information that aren’t on the outline. So when you’re practicing your speech, keep an eye on the time. In round, just stay disciplined and make sure to be aware of time signals.

The best thing to do is just to practice. Lots of practice speeches.

JC: How much of your speech do you write out during prep?

KT: Very little. My outlines more closely resemble debate flows than speeches. I don’t like write out phrasing, with the occasional exception of transitions. Instead, I focus on finding good evidence and formulating a logical structure.

JC: What type of evidence do you prefer? After all, you have tubs of it!

KT: The best kind of evidence for an extemp speech is that which has a qualified author. It gives so much more credibility to your speech if you are citing a professor or policy analyst instead of the Associated Press. However, that brings up an interesting point. A speech should probably never be comprised entirely of “qualified” sources. The reason is that then you are letting experts do all of your analysis for you. I think there needs to be a premium placed on original analysis and interpretation of current events. So if you have an idea that is supported by a recent occurrence, sometimes an article from the New York Times that merely reports, instead of analyzes, is best for proving your analysis true.

JC: Do you think an overemphasis on citations is a problem in extemp today?

KT: Yes. I’m of the mind that too many people are using too many sources. My coach has always emphasized that I need to drive the analysis. It can’t be the source driving the analysis. The other problem is that some extempers seem intent on turning it into an arms race. Who can cite the most sources in seven minutes? That’s why we have policy debate (with respect to my favorite forensics event). Extemp should be different. In many speeches, I will only cite seven sources. In others, as many as eleven. But I’m careful to ensure that I’m using the source to support my interpretation of a topic, not to provide my interpretation of a topic.

The most important thing is that there has to be a reason you are citing the source. Citing a source just to have more evidence is never a good reason.

JC: That really has to be an odd switch, then, to go back into policy, with such a definite emphasis on the volume of evidence.

KT: Actually, it’s not as hard as you would think. Partially because extemp has changed the way I’ve done policy. This year, I really slowed down, focused on actually analyzing an opponent’s evidence, and picked fewer arguments in any given round. But more importantly, you never forget how to do policy. Extemp doesn’t really interfere. They’re different mental gears.

JC: We know how that turned out at your state tournament. Overall, has it been helping you in policy?

KT: I’d like to think so. Extemp helped me to view policy as more of a persuasive activity. You’re trying to win the judges ballot, so whatever is most persuasive is also most strategic. Sometimes, that’s going full-bore and reading a million cards, but often, it’s using the second rebuttal to slow down and tell a story. Compare the affirmative and negative worlds, and write the judges ballot for them.

JC: No doubt this skill helped you at your one LD tournament?

KT: Yeah. I did my best to adapt. The speaking skills I’ve gained in extemp were instrumental.

JC: When did you first become truly satisfied with how you were doing in extemp?

KT: Well, there’s always ways to improve and more to accomplish (at least until NFLs are over). But I would say that this year I have been satisfied with my competitive performance. It’s impossible not to be.

JC: But, I guess, the big secret is that you like policy even more…so does that mean you regret not having spent more time with it? Or do you have no regrets in that department?

KT: I have no regrets. Policy was awesome while I was doing it. But I’m done, and I couldn’t be happier to go out with an appearance in state finals. And my preference for policy isn’t by a ton. I love extemp too, and find it extremely engaging and enjoyable.

–
And now, a quick aside.

JC: In addition to being quite the accomplished extemper and debater, you’re quite the accomplished musician, it seems. Tell us more!

KT: Not an accomplished musician. A casual guitar player. I’ve spent the past four years teaching myself acoustic, and I just got an electric a few months ago.

KT: It’s a great way for me to relax.

JC: What kinds of music do you like?

KT: I have a pretty wide range of musical interests. Right now, it’s best placed in the alt and indie rock genres. I’ve been listening to Coldplay, Counting Crows, Goo Goo Dolls, The Shins, Neutral Milk Hotel, The Postal Service and Modest Mouse, to name a few.

JC: That’s a bit too new school for me, but it’s all good. [laughs]

–
Jon and Kevin get back to business.

JC: How would you describe an ideal extemp speech?

KT: I think the ideal extemp speech completely answers the question, has a variety of quality sources, is balanced in its time allocation, and is delivered in a manner that is both interesting and understandable. Nothing too revolutionary there.

JC: Do you feel a lot of extempers don’t answer the question?

KT: Unfortunately, a lot of extempers don’t answer the question. It varies in degree. Few extempers give a blatantly non-responsive speech, but ignoring parts of the question is commonplace.

JC: Let’s backtrack and talk about Eagan. It’s an incredible program.

KT: Absolutely. I’m very lucky to be in such a great speech and debate program. It’s rare for both to be so strong and well-supported. My coach, Chris McDonald, is great. Joni Anker does an amazing job with the speech team. And our principal, Polly Reikowski, herself a longtime speech and debate coach, couldn’t be more supportive. She was with us at nationals last year in Salt Lake.

JC: Your principal came with you to Salt Lake City? That’s awesome!

JC: Do you work together as a team on the extemp squad, or is it pretty individual?

KT: It’s very much a team effort. I couldn’t ask for a better group of extempers. They’re great about doing their work. Not just if I ask them to, but on their own. Everyone contributes, not only to research, but to the atmosphere. We have a really good time in practice, listening to music, checking on the NCAA scores - we have an extemp team pool - and just hanging out. Considering how much fun we have, it’s surprising that any of us do well.

JC: [laughs] Awesome.

JC: Though there are major tournaments left, of course, you are nearing the end of the career. Do you plan to remain involved in speech and debate?

KT: Yeah, I’m definitely going to remain involved. I’ll work at some camps this summer. Hopefully someone will want me to judge next year. Eventually, I’d like to coach. I love helping less-experienced debaters and extempers.

JC: So, you’re a lifer?

KT: As much as I can, I’d like to remain involved.

JC: Are you into politics outside of extemp? How would you describe yourself politically?

KT: I haven’t been able to get really involved in politics thus far. But I think about it a lot. I am slightly left-of-center. Socially I’m very liberal. Economically, I suppose I’m fairly conservative (pro free-trade, pro entitlement reform, etc.) But to me that’s really just classical liberalism. I’m similar to the Democratic Leadership Council/New Democrat ideology.

JC: Do you find it hard to speak in front of those with wildly different political views?

KT: Not especially. I make sure that my speeches are never partisan rants. And ultimately, if you present a well-reasoned argument, judges will reward you.

KT: Well, in the MBA exhibition round I made fun of Bush quite a bit. But that’s the exception, rather than the rule.

JC: [chuckles] Of what accomplishment are you most proud?

KT: Probably winning Nationals my sophomore year. I had only been in extemp for about six months, and it was really special to be so successful so early. I owe a ton to my coach for really driving me to improve quickly. I’m now much, much better than I was then. But I will always look back on the USX championship fondly.

JC: That must have felt amazing. Were you really surprised? Tell us about that.

KT: I was very surprised. I didn’t go in with any expectations, and winning was the furthest thing from my mind. I’m still not entirely happy with my final round speech. I’ve been forced to watch the tape a few times, and my inexperience shows. But it did feel great. Plus, that was the year when my good friend Tom Finley finally won his national title, so it was awesome to share that with him.

JC: Did you feel a lot of pressure going into your junior year, having won Nationals as a tenth grader?

KT: Tons. I didn’t deal very well with it either. I often let it get to me, and didn’t do as well as I would have liked to. The thing is, the pressure was almost all internal. I’ve learned to overcome it, fortunately.

JC: That’s awesome.

JC: I guess, then, the question I think most appropriate to ask is: when you’ve had early success, how do you not let the pressure get to you? How do you avoid peaking? You’ve accomplished an incredible amount since winning Nationals.

KT: I avoided peaking by recognizing that early competitive success doesn’t equate to early mastery of the event. At Nationals my sophomore year, I still had a ton to learn. And I still do. I find a lot of my motivation by my drive to get better at extemp as a category.

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